PL SUBCOM 06/16/1971 - 310919
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PLATS & SUBDIVISIONS-
STREETS & UTILITIES SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING
JUNE 16, 1971 PAGE 1
The meeting was called to order at 8:18 P.M. by Chairman Schmedeke.
ROLL CALL:
Members Present:
Memb ers Absent:
Others Present:
Meissner, Schmedeke, Pierce, Engdahl, Crowder
None
Darrel Clark, Engineering Assistant
1. CONTINUED• PROPQSED PRELIMINARY PLAT, P.S. ��71-02, BRIARDALE, BY RICHARD
MiLLER HOMES, INC.: Replat of Lots 1, 2 and 3 and Outlot ��1 and Outlot
��2, Cochran's Addition.
2. CONTINUED• VACATION REQUEST, SAV �it71-03, RICHARD MILLER HOMES, INC_,_:
Vacation of McKinley Street South of South line of Rice Creek Road and a
6 foot utility and drainage easement described as South 6 feet of Block
3, Cochran's Addition.
The following people, who were present, were interested in Items ��l and
4�2: Alvin Carlson, Richard Carlson, William Jensen of Suburban Engineering,
Inc., Richard Miller of Richard Miller Homes, Inc. and Robert Kelshaw, Council-
man . �-----�_
Four members of the Subcomanittee met at 7:00 P.M. on the site of the pre-
liminary plat together with Richard Mi11er, William Jensen, Alvin and Richard
Carlson. They returned to City Hall at 8:15 P.M.
Mr. Jensen said that, as far as he was concerned, he thought they made a
very broad presentation to the Subcoffinittee at the last meeting. Now he felt
they all had a better understanding of what the property looks like than pre-
viously.
Mr. Richard Carlson of Park Construction Company spoke on behalf of his
f ather who owns the property to the West. His opinion is they were definitely
for the development of this property. In accepting this proposal, they felt
that a storm sewer would be necessary. He noticed there were some changes
from the original street layout, but thought this could be worked out. How-
ever, there was another property owner involved, the Theilmanns, who should be
consulted to see if they are agreeable to the proposed street layout. He
asked Mr. Jensen if the land could be raised as it was lower than their
property.
Mr. Jensen answered that there were some earth computations made some
time last year for Lenny Cochran relative to the grade Lenny had in a pre-
viously prepared plan and that plan was lower in elevation, generally from
the center, than the proposed plan now. Basically the plan Lenny was working
on was not particularly desirable for residential development being somewhat
impractical. In many cases he had undesirable lots. Mr. Miller is attempting
,
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Plats & Subs Str & Util Subcom Mtt� - June 16, 1971 Page 2_: _
to sell high quality homes and high quality lots. He did not have a direct
answer to that question.
Mr. Carlson said they had natural drainage on their property now. He said
their property is prepared, having removed the excess material and completed
grading as presented to Council. This plan would require them to lower their
property in order to meet the Miller grades. He assumed the City would give
permission to remove excess dirt under those circumstances.
Darrel Clark said if Council accepted the grade of this plat, they would
have to accept his grade.
Mr. Jensen explained that the lowering they were talking about is a leveling
of the hill on Mr. Miller's property and the plateau on Mr. Carlson's property.
Mr. Miller said he would be happy to go in and do the grading for Mr. Carlson.
Referring to the hill on the proposed plat, Mr. Jensen said there is a
ridge in the back and the intention is to grade it down and retain the material.
The area to be served with a storm sewer would be large, perhaps between
250 and 300 acres. Mr. Carlson's piece is 8 acres, and looking at it in this
way, the assessments for individual parcels are really small in relation to
the whole.
Darrel Clark said that for a permanent storm sewer, Council has ordered
an estimate of what it will cost the storm sewer on the whole area. The figure
is $8.00 per hundred square feet. The assessment will be put in escrow.
The six substandard lots are Lots 4 and 5, Block 1, Lots 4 and 5, Block 2,
Lot 23, Block 3(corner lots) and an internal lot, Lot 9, Block 2.
Chr. Schmedeke asked why a new plat would come up with substandard lots.
Mr. Miller said it has been in their experience that being you have the
opportunity to bring a driveway in from either of two streets, it gives an
opportunity to build a more imaginative type of house and architecturally
better. In their opinion, it was not necessary to have a corner lot larger
than 75 feet.
Da.rrel �lark said the minimum size lot is 75 feet with an additional
5 feet for a corner lot. The interior Lot 9 has a 73 foot frontage, but
meets the area requirements. On a cul de sac you go back 35 feet which should
make a 75 foot buildable frontage.
Mr. Meissner said he figured Mr. Miller would have to eliminate five lots
in the plat if he were to bring the substandard lots up to Code.
Chr. Schmedeke said it surprised him that the grading was not done before
the petitioner came before a committee. This makes it hard for the Subcommittee.
Mr. Jensen explained this would be a rather difficult thing to ask a land
owner to do if he has no idea what the City's intentions are. The first step
is what is happening here. The grading does not happen until a plat is being
planned.
.
Plats & Subs Str & Util Subcom Mtg - June 16, 1971 Page 3
Chairman Schmedeke asked for more information regarding the storm sewer.
Mr. Jensen said the nature of this drainage area is very large and complex.
A study is being done by the City Staff and Consulting Engineers. They did not
presume to draw a proposal relative to the storm sewer, but acknowledge there
has to be a storm sewer. They are not trying to give directions to the City.
Chairman Schmedeke said l�e would like to see the storm sewer go down the
South side of Rice Creek Road. Darrel Clark said there is a pipe there and it
was put in by the County and paid for by the County. The County went as far as
their design dictated to service Rice Creek Road to keep the drainage free from
collecting on Central Avenue and w�hing out tl�e road.
The Commission agreed that a storm sewer for this area would have to come
sooner or later.
Councilman Kelshaw said, that with the area being developed, it is becoming
apparent more and more that a storm sewer is a must, and it must be a permanent
one.
Chairman Schmedeke said that was the thing he has been preaching -- not to do
temporary work and then when the permanent project is put in, to have to make
an additional assessment. He felt all the people who would be included in the
storm sewer area should be contacted again as prices are still going up. He
felt that the street dedications should be given now by the adjoining property
owners of the proposed plat. Darrel Clark said that he thought that was right,
but you have to agree on a plan before you try to get dedications.
Mr. Meissner asked Mr. Miller if the Subcommittee would object to the
corner lot sizes, would he be willing to replat to get the larger corner lots
at the expense of losing some lots.
Mr. Miller said he did not feel it would be practical. The lots in question
on the proposed plat do meet the square footage requirements. They have a plan
for a house that does not require a variance.
Chairman Schmedeke said some of the problems he would like to have solved
were small corner lots, temporary storm sewer, draining out on somebody's
property, drainage into ponds, inform petitianer of desired grade, all parties
involved in the storm sewer project should be contacted by mail, and ask them
to submit their answers by mail.
Mr. Richard Carlson said they were not against the storm sewer because they
would be benefited. In order for them to develop the 8 acres, there will have
to be a storm sewer eventually. The property is available for development now.
It has been graded to provide surface drainage.
Darrel Clark told the Subcommittee they could probably give direction with
their thoughts on the problem, but the problems cannot be solved at this level.
Regarding the Miller property, if it is graded to drain as proposed, it will be
necessary to go West on Rice Creek Road to a deeper sanitary sewer manhole.
Mr. Carlson said he thought if they lowered their property, they could have
the lateral continue down to the streets West and then go out through Chies
property. They would not be adding to the depth.
� �lats & Subs Str & Util Subcom Mtg - J��e 16, 1971 __ Pa�e 4
Mr. Meissner said he felt the purpose of the Subco�ittee was one of fact
finding, and the real action is taken at the Planning Commission and City Council
level, therefore he made t�e following motion:
MOTION by Meissner, seconded by Pierce, that the Plats & Subdivisions-
5treets & Utilities Subcommittee send the proposed plat, P.5. #71-02, Briardale,
by Miller Homes, Inc., being a replat of Lots 1, 2, 3, Block 3 and Outlots #1
and #2, Cochran's Addition to the Planning Commission wi thout recommenda tion
pointing out to the Planning Co�nission the problems af street grades, street
dedications, storm and sanitary sewer are present as discussed in the 5ubcom-
mittee minutes and point out that five lots and one interior lot do not meet the
platting ordinance requirements. Upon a voice vote, Meissner and Schmedeke
voting aye, Pierce, Crowder and Engdahl voting nay, the MOTIDN FAILED.
Mr. Crowder said the Subcom�ittee was there to serve a purpose. They have
seen the site of the proposed plat. If they feel more facts would be beneficial,
that is what they should ask for. If they felt the facts are adequate, the
members should base the decisio^ on that. He would go along with Mr. Meissner
but he would request that he reword the motion so that it either spells out
what we approve or disapprove.
Mr. Meissner said that his reasoning was it seemed to him their connnittee
is more or less a fact finding one. There are a number of probl.ems he would
like to clear up and a public hearing before the Planning Co�nission is already
scheduled.
Mr. Pierce said that Mr. Crowder's testimony made him change his mind. He
did not have any objections as f ar as the lot sizes go. He recognizes all the
other problems, b ut , b asically, the lot sizes are O.K. if the problems can be
solved.
MOTION by Crowder, seconded by Engdahl, that the Plats & Subdivisions-
Stz'eets & Utilities Subcommittee recommend approval of the preliminary plat,
P.S. #71-02 and Vacation #71-03, by Miller Homes involving Lots 1, 2 and 3,
and Outlot #1 and Outlot #2, Cochran's Addition, based on satisfactory solu-
tions to the following problems: Proposed grading in the Preli minary Plat
raises unsolved questions regarding storm sewer, sanitary sewer, street
dedica tions and possible condemnations of adjoining land; also pointing out
five corner lots do not meet the minimum standards and one interior lot, Lot 9,
Block 2, does not meet the ordinance standards but are acceptable as they stand
on the proposed p1at, Briardale, drawn bg 5uburban Engineering, Inc., May 1971.
Upon a voice vote, Crowder, Engdahl and Pierce voting aye, Schmedeke voting
Nay, and Meissner abstaining, the motion carried.
3. LOT SPLIT RE UEST: L.S. 4�71-�8, BY CLIFFORD J. THO�: East 125 feet of
Lot 18, Block 2, Central View Manor.
Mr. Thoe explained Lot 18 has 175 footage on Old Central Avenue and is
125 feet deep on 73rd Avenue and-73� Avenue. The residence is on the Southwest
corner of the lot, and has a double garage. He wants to split off the resi-
dential area which is 70'x103' leaving the rest of the lot for the service
station. The filling station would have 175 feet along Central A�enue and
125 feet on 73� Avenue. He left 55 feet on 73rd Avenue adj acent to the
residential area for the station to give him enough parking. If the residential
lot would not come up to the City requirements, he would take the parking area
from the station and bring it up to almost 9,000 square feet. The garage is
` Plats & Subs -Str & Util Subcom Mtg - June 16, 1971 Page 5
at the Northeast corner of the lot adjacent to the filling station property and
he drives into the garage from across the filling station property. His house
faces Central Avenue. The neighbor to the West has a fence about two feet into
his lot.
Mr. Clark said the property is zoned C-1, and being C-1 under the present
ordinance, the lot does not meet the present code. The house has been there for
22 years.
Mr. Thoe said the fellow who is leasing the station now, wants to buy the
land and would like to buy the house, but can't swing both.
Mr. Crowder stated he felt uneasy about taking a commercial lot already
too small to meet present requirements and splitting off part of it for a R-1
use. He felt that one day the entire parcel would be one commercial site. He
asked what the description would be like. Darrel Clark said it would be the
South 103 feet and West 70 feet of the East 125 feet of Lot 18, Block 2, Central
View Manor for the residential lot.
Mr. Meissner wondered if the garage could be moved and then split the lot.
He felt the request was somewhat questionable as to the feasibility of this
split.
Mr. Thoe said the station is 40'x60' and the station agent is going to put
in another pump. He has room to build out to the back.
Mr. Schmedeke said that if the property owner figures this is what he is
going to do, he did not want to deny him this privilege. But Mr. Thoe should
have a way into the double garage.
Mr. Clark said it might be difficult to get a mortgage on the house. With
the house in C-1 property, it is a non-conforming use.
Mr. Crowder said he could not see, basically, creating two lots which are
substandard. The use of this lot should be singular. Because of the zoning,
it would not meet commercial requirements.
It was mentioned he would go to the Board of Appeals for_a variance. The
petitioner has to prove why he has to have the variance. The property to the
North is light industrial, to the East is commercial and light industrial South
of 73rd Avenue, the lot to the West is commercial and further West light indus-
trial and to the South it is commercial and light industrial.
Mr. Crowder said he still did not think he was convinced it would be a
good idea because, by splitting the lot, you would be creating too many problems.
He was not certain that the entire lot might be worth a lot more than two par-
cels. Because it is zoned commercial and creating a residential lot, he did not
believe it was in the best interests of the City of Fridley. He asked if Mr.
Thoe could look a little harder to get a buyer for the entire lot.
Mr. Thoe said he had only one buyer. He was the lessee. There is no chance
to talk to someone else, as he has a five year lease and option. As far as
selling to s,omeone else, it was out of the question. He was told that if the
lot were split, the taxes on the two parcels would be more than on one.
Rlats & Suhs -�tr & Uti1 Suhcom Mtg. - June 16, 1971 Page 6
Chairman Schmedeke said he had mentioned it at the Planning Commission level
of which he is a member and is looking out for the benefit of the City, but when
a problem like this comes up, the property owner comes first, then the neighbor,
and then the City. The City will be here long after we are gone, but these
people will not and the neighbors will not. You should look at the property
through the eyes of the present owner.
Mr. Crowder said he was more interested in the long range aspects of the
corner. We are looking at it for today. Because of the City, we should be
looking at it that way.
Chairman Schmedeke said.that the Subcommittee is not asked to change the
zoning. Eventually the property could be sold in a complete package regardless
of the lot split.
Darrel Clark said Mr. Thoe would have to get an easement for sewer and
water across the filling station property, as the house is served from there
now.
Mr. Crowder said he would like a motion to continue the lot split and
request the petitioner to go back and consider moving the lot line closer to
the pumps, some thinking as to easement for sewer and water, some idea how to
get the driveway easement from the station out to 73� Avenue exit, to go back
and put these thoughts on another piece of paper and come back.
Mr. Thoe said he could change those lines now. He could put in anything
else they might request.
MOTION by Crowder, seconded by Meissner, that the Plats & Subdivisions-
Stxeets & Utilities Svbcommittee continue the 1ot split request, L.S. #71-OS by
Cli fford J. Thoe, for the East 125 feet of Lot IS, Block 2, Central View Manor,
until such time as the petitioner comes back with a drawing indicating some
of the things the Subcommittee talked about such as easements relative to water
and sewer, placement of dri veway, exact location where lot line would be. Upon
a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried unanimous.iy.
4. LOOPBACKS:
Continued until the next meeting.
ADJOURNMENT :
MOTION by Pierce, seconded by Engdahl, that the Su.bcommittee meeting be
adjourned at 10:45 P.M. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, the motion carried
unanimously.
Res ectfull su� bmitted
G��G��L �1J�i�/L���
Haz 0'Brian
Recording Secretary