PL SUBCOM 11/14/1973 - 31143�
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CITY OF FRIDLEY
PLATS & SUBDIVISIONS-
STREETS & UTILITIES SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING NOVEMBER 14, 1973 FAG�S 1
CALL TO ORDER:
Chairman Harris called the meeting to order at 7:40 P.M.
ROLL CALL:
Members Present: Harris, Christensen, Meissner
Members Absent: Forster, French
Others Present: Darrel Clark, Community Development Adm.
- Robert Parta, County Attorney's Office
APPROVE PLATS & SUBDIVISIONS-STREETS & UTILITIES SUBCOMMITTEE
MINUTES: �CTOBER 24, 1973
MOTION by Meissner, seconded by Christensen, that the
P1ats & Subdivisi'ons-Streets & Utilities Subcommittee minutes
of October 24, 1973 be approved as written. Upon a voice vote,
a11 voting aye, the motion carried unanimous.Zy.
l. VACATION REQUEST, SAV #73-11, BY ALLEN ZEIS: of a street
and alley as follows, Hickory Street between Block 3 and
4, Onawa� Addition and an alley adjacent to and West of
Block 4, Onaway Addition located between Beech Street
and the railroad tracks, between 78th and 79th Avenues N.E.,
to allow construction of an industrial complex.
Mr. Zeis came later in the meeting.
Mr. Christensen asked the�purpose of this request,
Mr. Clark answered that the petitioner wants to construct
two speculative buildings, one facing 78th Avenue and one facing
79th Avenue, with a common loading area.
Mr. Christensen asked wher� the access would be.
Mr. Clark said there is an improved alley, but this alley
would have to be widened. He said that A1 Zeis owns both blocks
in thi� area. He has brought in a set of plans, and it was felt
that this was the best way to develop this area.
Mr. Harris said this vaeation had been started before. Mr..
Clark said this request was different in that the petitioner doesn't
want the improved alley vacated, and�the original vacation had only
• had the first reading. Mr. Harris said there was a vacation request
for Gumwood, too, and he thought this vacation had gone through. Mr.
Clark said that was held up after the first reading also, although
the petitioner �f that vacation request, Mr. Houser, has fenced part
, of the right of way. .
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Plats & Subs.-5tr. & Util. Sub. Meeting - November 14 � 1973 Page 2
Mr. Christensen asked what the plari was for the end of
78th Avenue. Mr. Clark said there should be a cul-de-sac there.
It probably should have a radius of 120 feet because this is an
industrial area. As far as 79th is concerned, we don't know at
�his time if this will be extended across the tracks or not. The
crossing has been appr.oved by the railroad. Mr. Harris said there
would be opposition to this from the people across the tracks.
Mr. Clark said that when this Subcommittee had studied the area,
it was felt the 77th crossing should be moved to 79th. There should
probably be a temporary turn around at 79th Avenue until there is
a decision on this street. •
Mr. C.hristensen asked when this area had started to develop.
He said the streets were so nice up in this area but it seemed to
be a kind of hodge podge. Mr. Clark said this area started to
develop in 1959. Mr. Harris said this was about 1911 vintage as
far as the plat was concerned and there had been a multiple of land
owners. Mr. Clark said that with the adoption of the new code now,
he thought this area would look quite different in a year or two.
MOTION by Meissner, seconded by Christensen, that the Plats
& Subdivisions-Streets & Uti.Zities Subcommittee recommend to the
P.Ianning Commission approval of vacation request, SAV #73-11, by
Allan Zeis, to vacate a street and a11ey described as Hickory Street
between B1ock 3 and 4, Onaway Addition, and an aZley adjacent to,
and West of Block 4, Onaway Addition, located between Beech Street
and the rai.Zroad tracks, between 78th and 79th Avenues N.E., to
allow constr�ction of an industrial complex, subject to the retention
of the utility easement in this alley, with consideration being
given t-o widening the a11ey Iocated in B1ock 3, Onaway Addition,
and with a 120 foot radius cul-de-�sac at 78th Avenue, and the
possibility of a temporary cuZ-de-sac at 79th Avenue N.E. .Upon a
voice vote, a1Z voting aye, the motion carried unanimously.
2. CONSIDERATION OF A PROFOSED PRELIMINARY PLAT, P.S. #73-09,
$Y THE WALL CORPORATION: being a replat of the East Half of
the Northwest Quarter of the Southwest Quarter of Section
14, T-30, R-24, City of FridZey, County of Anoka, Minnesota;
with exceptions. (Riedel property).
Mr. Rudolpr� Dante, represei�ting the Wall Corporation, and
Mr. Bob Parta, representing the County Attorney's office were
present.
Mr. Dante explained the proposed plat. �He said they would
have a three story apartment complex in the R-3 area. There would
be open courts in the apartment cnmplex which were shown with green
lines on the plat. There would be two wings for enclosed parking.
of 135 cars. Because the elevation on this enclosed parking would
have a low profile, they would have an area for volley ball and
tennis courts on the roof. The ponding area would be similar to the
original plan, but there would be creeks between the three ponds so
they could be used for canoeing. They are showing the piece of
property that the County may want to acquire for their library site,
but if they don't acquire. the property, this will be platted into two
resi:dential lots..� This plat shows 28 residential lots with five being
Plats & Subs.-Str. & Util. Sub. Meeting -November 14., 1973 Page 3
served with a cul-de-sac street off of 5th Street N.E.
Mr. Harris asked if all these R-1 lots meet the code
requirements. Mr. Dante said.all the lots were 75 feet by 120
feet or larger.
Mr. Harris asked who was going to have control over the
ponding area? Mr. Dante said this would be part of the apartment
complex and would be owned and controlled by the Wall Corporation.
Mr. Harris asked about the lots that were half R-1 and half
R-3. Mr. Clark said this would present no problem as long as the
use would be R-l.
Mr. Christensen said there were larger platted lots where
the City would want storm sewer and walkway easements, so this
would present no problem either.
Mr. Clark said the copy of the proposed plat that the
Subcommittee members had received in their agenda was a plat drawn
up by the City staff, after the meetings held with the Wa11 Corp-
oration in October. The plat Mr. Dante is presenting was drawn
up by the Wall Corporation. Mr. Clark continued, that the basic
difference in the two plans is that where the Wall Corporation has
the five extra R-1 lots is where the City proposed a recreation
area or park site. He said the shape of the apartment complex
was different, but the Council was not trying to shape the apartment
building with their proposal.
Mr. Clark said the cost of running a cul-de-sac into these
five additional lots with the street and utilities would be $25,000
or $5,000 a 1ot. There would be a question of it being economically
feasible to develop these lots. The City would rather see open
space there. He said if this street went in, the setback would
change on the enclosed garage for the apartments. Mr. bante said
that th�s was just a drawing and the garage could be turned to
meet the setback requirements. Mr. Harris said the proposed street
was only 25 feet wide and this would be too narrow. Mr. Clark
said the street surface would have to be at least 31 feet wide and
the cul-de-sac would have to be larger. The right of way should
be at least 40 feet. The code is 50 feet.
Mr. Clark said the County is negotiating at the present time
for a portion of the Wall Corporation property for their library
site. He said if this was platted as two lots, this could change
the valuation of the property. Mr. Parta stated that the County
was very close to finalizing the negotiations on this property and
they would be making an offer next week. Mr. Clark said this goes
to Council for consideration of the final plat on December lOth. Mr.
Dante said he would hope this could be settled before this meeting.
Mr. Parta said it would be close, because he thought it would be
about three weeks before this was settled. He said there was a
remote possibility that this property would have to be condemned.
Plats & Subs.-Str. & Util. Sub. Meeting-November 14, 1973 Page 4
Mr. Dante said that in the past, we have been asked about
the library having a common driveway with the Wall Corporation.
Mr. Clark said this would eliminate one driveway access and help
with the traffic problem. Mr. Dante said that in all their planning
for this property, they have held the parcel the County might.want
for a library site, in abeyance. The Wall Corporation has always
been willing to work with the Ltbrary Board.
Mr. Clark said that at the time of the rezoning request on ;
this property, the proposal was to have 108 apartment units in
the R-3 area and 61 townhouses in the R-1 area. When the plan
was approved, it was for 108 apartment units and 59 townhouses.
On May l7, 1973, the Wal1 Corporation said they wanted to change
their plan to all townhouses, 155 of them, which would start out
as rental units and eventually be privately owned. Then about
six weeks ago, they asked to build smaller townhouses, with a
one car tuck under garage, and these would be all rental units.
The Council said they �aould not desire such a plan. Out of the
meetings held later, the Council suggested an apartment complex
of 130 units and 23 residential lots. The City drew up one plan
�and Mr. Dante has presented the Wall Corporation plan tonight.
The meetings have all been set on this request, as there is a rush
to get this project going before the freeze-up.
Mr. Christensen said he would be interested in what the main
factor has been in all the changes made by the Wall Corporation in
their plans in the last l� years. _
Mr. Dante said at the time they proposed the l55 townhouses
it was because the Council felt they wanted single family housing
in the area and townhouses was as close to single family housing
as we cauld get. This could not be done on a viable basis as far
as financing the entire 155 s�ructures. We would have to build
a few townhouses, and wait until they were sold, before we could
build 6 more, and it would have been a constant construction program,
which wouldn't have been too desirable in the heart of Fridley.
We then asked if we could build the townhouses as all rental units
on a temporary basis, and sell them over a three to five year ��
�period. ��Then the £inancial structure changed drastically and we �
found we would be building units that would have to rent for somewhere
in the $430 to $460 a month category and we didn't think we could
find 155 families that would pay that rental cost. Our architect
built.the Roger Larson Townhouses, which are rental units, and we
also have a development out in Eagan. We asked the Council to look
at these two sites to show What we wanted to build on this property.
These would be smaller townhouses with a tuck under garage. The
concensus of the opinion of the Counc.il was that they didn't want
a development such as this at this location.
• Mr. Dante said he would like to see about 225 units of apartment;
in the R-3 area, surrounded by open area, which he felt would
really be a buffer from the residential areas. At the meeting with
the�Council they said they would rather see R-1 lots around the
apartment complex of only approximately 130 units.
Plats & Subs -Str & Util Sub Meeting-November 14,1973 Page 5
Mr. Dante said Mr. Riedel and Mr. Pederson were at this
meeting and discussed the IRS problems and other liens on the
property, and it was mentioned that the IRS would foreclose on
this property in about six months. Mr. Dante said he asked Mr.
Qureshi the code requirements for lot size in an R-1 area and it
really didn't take a great land planner to draw in lots on a
rectangle piece of property. It was indicated at this time that
the Wall Corporation should buy this property. We already had
spend $60,000 on plans for the area. We are not the owners of
this pro�erty, and do plan to get started on this project this
year.
Mr. Harris said that on the original proposal, the developer
was going to put in sidewalks. Mr. Clark said as these lots are
going to be individual R-1 lots, the City could be putting in the
sidewalks and assessing the property�owners, as there was right of
way for this purpose. In checking Mr. Dante's plan, it was found
that the Easterly boundary of the property was in this right of
way and would have to be moved back to the property lines.
Mr. Harris asked Mr. Dante if he had pro�ected any cos.ts of
developing the individual R-1 lots. Mr. Dante said he hadn't. He
said he was not looking at individual lotsbecause they planned to
sell all the R-1 lots to one builder and have him develop them. Mr.
Harris said that because of the different elevations and there
being peat on some of the lots, the cost of improving some of these
lots could be so prohibitive that some of the lots could go tax
forfeit. Mr. Dante said there had not better be any tax forfeit
lots because they needed the sale of the residential lots to develop
the apartment complex. As far as he is concerned, these are all
buildable lots.
Mr. Meissner said then the concern of the Wall Corporation is
on the development of the apartment complex, and the development of
the R-1 area will be someone elses problem.
M�r. Harris asked if there were a lot of assessments outstanding
on this property. Mr. Clark said the assessments should almost be
paid up, so this was no problem.
Mr. Harris said that the $25,000 for development of the five
additional lots could be spread over the entire R-1 development and
it would only add less than $1,000 to the 28 lots. This would
h�ave to be taken up with the develop�r of the R-1 area and cannot
be made p�art of this plat.
Mr. Meissner said he would like to go through the stipulations
of the memo of November 2, 1973. Mr. Dante said he has not seen
those stipulations.
Mr. Meissner said the first stipulation was on the development
of residential lots, on which there was agreement.
The second stipulation was on the size of the apartment complex
witYi reference made to the rental rates. Mr. Dante said the building
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Plats & Subs Str & Util Sub Meeting-November 14 1973 Pac�e 6
�ould have around 130 units but there was no way the City could
dictate tlie rental rates. In checking further stipulations, Mr.
Meissner said it was all in the R-3 zone, and parking was provided
for. Mr. Dante said they haven't agreed to the recreational
facilities. Mr. Meissner said he didn't think that should be part
of the consideration of this play anyway. The ponding is as
stipulated. As �ar as the preserving of the grove of �rees, there
are lots on this part of the plat now. Mr. Dante said they would
be providing the landscaping, but they hadn't agreed to a metal
fence. Mr. Clark said there should be fencing provided between
the garages and the R-1 lots. Mr. Meissner said the things that
aren't agreed upon are things that should not be considered in
approving the proposed plat.
Mr. Clark said that the variance request for for reducing
the density from 2500 square feet per unit to 1906.8 square_feet
per unit. This is based on the area zoned R-3 only. If you ynclude
the open area in R-1 that adjoins the apartment area, the density
would be 22d4 square feet per unit, which would help justify the
variance being granted.
Mr. Meissner wondered how things had changed. He said at
the time of the original proposal in this area, the neighbors.had
asked that this be developed as R-1 property and were told that if
was not economical3.y feasible to develop this property this way.
Mr. Harris and Mr. Clark checked the elevations on the R-1
lots being platted and determined that the fill for these lots
would run somewhere between $500 to $1,000 ger lot, depending
upon the different elevations and where the peat was located on
each lot.
Mr. Meissner said this proposed.plat meets the code require-
ments on the R-1 portion and they will be able to build in the
R-3 area if they get relief on the density from the Board of Appeals.
Mr. Dante said he was not in favor of walkway easements on
private property. Mr. Harris and Mr. Meissner said they agreed,
�especially when the ponding area would be under the private owner- .
ship of the Wall Corporation. Because these lots will be under
private awnership rather than a corporation if the townhouses had
been built, it does change the walkway proposal. There is room to
provide these walkway easement and easements for storm sewers on
63rd which should line up with 6th Street, and on 7th Street whicYi
should line up with Bennet Drive and on Mississippi, Mr. Clark said.
MOTION by Meissner, seconded by.Christensen, that the P1ats
& Subdivisions-Streets & Utilit.ies Subcommittee recommend to the
Planning Commission approval of the proposed preliminary plat, P.S.
#73-09, by the Wa1I Corporation, being a replat of the East Half of
the Northwest Quarter of the Southwest Quarter of Section 14, T-30,
R-24, City of Fridley,: County of Anoka, Minnesota, with exceptions,
with the stipulat.ions that approval be subject to straightening out
of one 1ot in the R-1 area, grovide proper width and new setbacks for
the new cul-de-sac road, provide easement that will be required for
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Plats & Subs.-Str. & Util. Sub. Meetinq-November Z4, 1973 PaQe 7
storm sewer outlets into the ponding area, and subject to the
reaZignment of the Easterly boundary back to the property line,
allowing for proper sidewalk easements, and contingent upon the
proper relief o'f density requirements in the R-3 area being
approved by the Board of Appeals and City Council. Upon a voice
vote, aIZ voting aye, the motion carried unanimously.
Chairman Harris adjourned the meeting at 9:35 P.M.
Respectfully submitted,
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Dorothy Edenson, Secretary