PL 03/03/1976 - 30439.
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CITY OF FRIDLEY
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MARCH 3, 1976
CALL TO ORDER:
PAGE 1
Chairman Harris called the meeting to ord�r at 7:39 P.M.
ROLL CALL:
Members Present: Harris, Langenfeld, Bergman, Peterson
Wahlberg
Members Absen�t: Scott
Others Presentr Jerrold Boardman, City Planner
APPRUVT PL��NiJING C:OMMISS ION MINUTES : FE�3RUARi' 18 , 19 7 6
Mr. Langenfeld said that on page 11. of these minutes a
statenlent made by him, third paragraph, should read that he
didn't feel that -this was a directional sign as i� did not
have �ny kind af ar�ow on t.he signo
1�'tr. Harris said that in the nex� ta the last paragr��.ph
on page 16, there was a typo error saying Mrs. Starwalt, and
that should be changed to Mr. Starwal�, and on page 17, the
�"1 next to the last paragraph, should read that Chairman Harris
� asked M.�. Starwalt.a...
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MOfiIDN by Peterson, seconded by Wahlberg,.that the F1ann9.ng
Commission approve the minutes of the February 18, 1976 nieeting
as corrected. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting a�e, the mo�ion.
carried unanimously.
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RECEIVE ENVIRONMENTAL QUALZTY COMMISSION MINU`1'LS: FEBRUARY 17P 1976
MOTION by Langenfeld, seconded by Pe�ersvn, that the Planiiing
Commission receive the EnvironmentaZ Qua�ity Commzssion minutes of
the meeting of February 17, 1976. Upon a voice vote, a11 �otina aye,
the motion carried unanimously. � -
RECEIVE PARKS & RECI2EATION COMMZSSION MINUTES: FEBRUARy 23, 1976
MOTION•by Peterson, seconded by Langenfeld, tha� the PZanning
Cammission receive the Parks & Recreation Commission mizzutes of
the meeting of February 23, 1976.
l�r. Peterson said that Mr. Scott of the Hu.man Rasources
Commission appeared at this meeting giving testimony and ccnunents
on the Fine Arts group, and he felt ii: was very k�eneficial when
other people appear and give us the benefit of their input.
UPON a vo.zce vote, aZZ voting aye, the motion carried unan.imousl�.
PLANNING COMMrS�SI"ON MEETING -- March 3, 1976 Page 2
l. CONTINUED: PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMIT, �`
SP #76-02, BY PLYWC�OD MINNESOTA, INC.: To allow the construc-
tion of a 10 by 30' billboard in M-2 zoning (heavy industrial �
areas), to designate the entrance to Plywood Minnesota and �
Wickes to replace an existing non-conforming sign, per Fridley '
City Code, Section 214.0�2, located on Lot 9, Block 1, Great
Northern Industrial Center, the same being 5301 East River
Road N.E.
Public Hearing closed.
MOTION BY Peterson, seconded by Wahlberg, that the Planning
Commission reopen the public hearing on a request for a 5pecial
Use Perm�it, SP #76-02, by Plywood Minnesota, Inc. Upon a voice
vote, a11 votinq aye, Chairman Harris declared the Public Hearing
reopened at 7:45 P.M.
Mr. C::arles Seeger, Wicices Furniture, and Mr. Eugene Hunt of
Plywood Minnesota were present.
Chairman Harris asked Mr. Boardman if he had been able to
ob�ain the information the Planning Commission had requested at
the last meeting.
Mr. Boardman said that a copy of a memo from Tom Colbert had
been distributed to the Planning Commission at this meeting.
MOTION by Langenfeld, seconded by Peterson, thai the Planning �
Commission receive a memo from Ton Colbert, Assistant City Engineer _
regarding traffic flow for East River Road and 53rd Way, dated
March 2, 1976. Upon a voice vote, aZ1 voting aye, the motion
carried unanimously.
Mr. Charles Seeger said that in looking over this memo, he
would like to have this request tabled again to give him an oppor-
tunity to meet with the County to see just what they had in mind.
He said that as it stands at this time, a small sign on East River
Road saying that there was another exit, in addition to the 40 some
signs that were already there, he didn't feel would help either
Wickes and Plywood or the public. He thought something else would
have to be done. He said that in defense of what they were proposing,
when people qet off of the freeway, coming primarily from the East,
and come down the clover leaf, they look over and see Wickes and
Plywood, when they are at the stop sign. He said some of them have
turned around and gone back up the ramp, and there have been lots
of accidents because of this. He said that if the existing sign
had met the height that was allowed in the City Code, it could be
seen more plainly and people would be aware of where they were
supposed to turn to get to Wickes and Plywood. He said to have a
directional sign further south where there were no structures he
thought would be twice as confusing for the people looking for an
entrance into these two commercial businesses. He thought this
should be researched further. �a.-1
Ghairman Harris asked Mr. Seeger if he understood why the "
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Planning Comrli.ssion Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 3
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Planning Commission was concern�d about the traffic problems in the
�-•� area.
� Mr. Seeger said he did, but never the less, th� problem still
remains as far as the industrial park. He said that at present, Wickes
and Plywood were the only two retail businesses in this park. He said
that these were substantial businesses. To direct people to these
businesses you have to have something to direct them to the entrance
to these businesses. We know that the existing billboard did not
m�et the code, a�L least it was well lit, it was good looking and
didn't detract from anything. He said that what they were proposing
was to add Plywood Minnesota's name to this billboard and bringing
the sign up to the height allowed in the Code. He said he had tal}�ed
to the Burlington Northern people and athey were not interested in
putting up any billboard designating who was located in this industrial
park. He said that Wickes and Plywood were willing to reserve space
for any non-r�tail business �that should located in this indu�trial
park, at their expense. He said that if the property was developed
where this sign was located, they knew that this sign would have -to
come down, but rie thought this billboard was an interim solutione
He said that if �he Planning Commission couldn°t go along with the
proposal as it had been presented, then he would like to have time
to do some further researcho
Chairman Harris said that we know that we have a bad situation
with traf�'ic patterns in this area nov�, and with further developm�nt
� of the industrial park, it will get worse. The Planning Commission
` felt that they would like to make every effort to have a better
solution to that problem than just this billboard.
Mr. Seeger said that part of the problem was the traffic from
F.M.C. He said he didn't think they should be able to tie up the
entire River Road when their work day was over. He thought the
people leaving this plant should leave in sporatic intervals.
Mr. Boardman said he thought the County was thinking of sigr.s
designating a irontage road for 51st and 53�d, and also using street
sigriing, as there wasn't any in that area. Mr. Seeger said he didn't
think that would help their situation, because there was no visual
problem as to.seeing where Wickes and Plywood were located, just on
how to get to the entrance to these businesses. He said that whatever
the size was of the billboard, it should be larg� enough to catch the
eye of the people looking for the entrance. Mr. Seeger said the key
to this problem would be how many �t�sinesses would go into this
industrial park that would be open to the public. He said the
two retail•�businesses draw 5,000 cars a week, and that was a lot of
traffic.
Mr. Peterson said that when this industrial park was developed,
and even if there were 48 factories built along with�these two
retail businesses, if we think we've got a problem with F.M.C. it
,-� wi11 be nothing to the problem we would have when all these people
' left work. He said he was disappointed in the report from the County.
It looked like they spent all of 10 minutes on this problem.
Mrs. Wahlberg said that one significant item was that they were
Planning Commission Meeting - March 3; 1976 Page 4
talking about that in the future of closing 53rd Avenue intersection
and have signalization at 51st Avenue. She thought that Mr. Seeger �
should certainly discuss this proposal with the County, because this r
would have a great impact to the accessibility to the two retail
establishments.
Mr. Seeger said the signs that the County had�put up for the
left turn had taken almost 9 months of discussion to get. If he
had to work out a proposal with the County he wondered if they
couldn't put up this billboard in the inte�im. Mr. Boardman said
this couldn't be handled that way.
Mr. Hunt said that Plywood Minnesota used to have their own
sign, but it blew down. �In attempting to replace it, they were
tagged, and so had come up with this proposal to share a sign with
Wickes and any other business that moved into this industrial park.
Mr. Seeger and Mr. Hunt were in agreement that this request
could be continued until they could talk �o the County. They said
they would like this to be on the agenda for the next meeting.
MOTIDN by Peterson, seconded by Wahlberg, that the Planning
Commission continue until March 17, 1976, the request for a 5pecial
Use Permit, SP #76-02, by Plywood Minnesota, Inc. . �
Mr. Bergman said that he wanted the petitioner to not� that the
replacing of the sign was just a part of the problem. He thought ^
the petitioners agreed that the identification of this area and _
the traffic problem was a bigger problem. Mr. Seeger said he was
most concerned about his own businesso He said they want their
business recognized because they were the people who were generating
the traffic in the area. They were willing to share this sign with
any new business that moved into this area. He said he would try
to work out some type of joint agreement with the County. Mr. Boardman
said the City Engineering Department should be involved in this
agreement also. "
Mrs. Wahlberg said that the Planning Commission understood the
hard�hi� that these two retail businesses had in directing people
to the entrance, but they wanted the people to get to these businesses
in a safe manner.
UPON a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried unanimously.
2. PUBLIO H�ARING�� �ONS�DERATION OF A PRELIMINARY PLAT',� P.S.
#76-01, INNSBRUCK NORTH TOWNHOUSE IV AND V ADDITIONS, BY
DARREL A. FARR DEV�LOPMENT COKPORATI�N: Being a rep at of
Outlot H, Innsbruck North Addition, generally located South
of Innsbruck North Townhouses, Phase I, II, and III.
3. CONS IDERIIT ION OF A TOWNHOiJSE LIEVRLOPMENT OF ] 0 0 UNITS , T-
BY DARREL �1. rARR DLV�LOPNiENT CORPORATION, FOR INNSBRUCK t
TOWNHOUSE IV & V ADDITIONS.
? 6-� O 1
RTH �1
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Planninq �ommission Meetinq - March 3L 1976 � Page 5
Mr. Darrel Farr and Mr. Jim London were present:
MOTION by Wahlberg, seconded by Peterson, that the Planning
Commission open the Public Hearing on a proposed p1at, P.S. #7G-01
Innsbruck North Townhouse IV and V Additions, by Darrel A. Farr
Development Corporation. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, Chairman
Harris declared the Public Hearing open at 8:18 P.M.
Mr. Boardman said that this request was for the development of
�00 townhouse units. These additions would be phase IV and V of the
otal tovanhouse development. These 100 units would be part of the
resent Townhouse Association area. He said that the previous plan.
or this area had been to have 118 townhouses in this area. In the
ew plan, -�he 104 -�o�anhouse units would be built in groups of two.
he road pattern that was developed on this plat would be basically
he same road pattern in previous de��elop�nents. They would still
Y�ave the loop systems of West Bavarian Pass looping in and out of
1�teis�.er Road and East Savarian Pass going down to the quadrominiums.
'�his ties in very well with the previous proposale
� Mr. Darrel Farr said this replat v��as basically similar, if not
�l.most identica�,-�o the plat that had been previous approved by the
itye Since the initial approval, which was three plus years ago,
�,re have decided tha�t the land was not suit�d to as many uni�cs as
�ae had nlanned because after Suburban Engineering fin�shed the
Q3evelopment grading plan, the entire site was almost all cut and fi11.
�Ie said the original proposal was that the tawnhouses would be buil��
lin 4 to 8 units as in the other phases. The reason they went to
I2 unit development in this new plat was so they maintain a greater
Idifferential from one building to another so that hopefully they
Icould preserve and save a greater number of the trees.
Mr. Boardman said the City Naturalist had offered his sarvices
Ito Darrel Farr as far as providing information and his knowledge
iin preserving as many trees as possibl�.
Mr. Boardman sai.d the stipulatiar_s that had been agreed upon by
the City and the Darrel Farr Developm�nt Corporation were:
'l. Provide Easement for public trail adjacent to neighborhood park.
2. The plan specifications for streets and utilities are to be
submitted to the City for approval.
3. Off-street parking of 4.75 stalls per unit be pravided on
those: units fronting on 24' street. 4 spaces shall be provided
:�i�Ii each individual unit, the additional spaces should be
provided in close proximity to the affected units.
4. Darrel A. Farr Development Corporation will provide recordable
legal documentation notifying purchaser that there will be
no noise buffer provided from interstate traffic noice.
5. Trail development an� trail lighting will be completed with
landscaping of adjacent units.
Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 6
6. 'Require standard performance bond for exterior development
(paths, lighting, tennis court and tot lot) of 500 of the
anticipated costs. ��
Mr. Boardman said there were two other stipulations to provide
a tennis court and tot lot on Association property, which had been
agreed to.
Mr. Harris said this would be a private road system as on
previous development of the townhouse area.
Mr. Peterson asked if there wasn't a prior agreement that two
tennis courts would be provided that would be for the use of the
public that wouldn't be on Association property? _
� Mr. Broadman said that on the next plat on the agenda, which
had previously been proposed to be used for a 251 unit apartment
building, there was an agreement that two tennis courts woul� be
built on City park property. This agreement will hold over in the
new plat. Mr. Boardman said the City surveyors would be going out
to check to see if there was enough room in the adjacent neighborhood
park for these two �ennis courts. He said that if there wasn't room
for them there, they would be in close proximity, they would be
in Innsbruck North Park, which was just North of this development.
Mr. Peterson said it wasn't too long ago that the Parks & Recre�tion
Commission had a delegation from Innsbruck North and at that time
these people were under the impression that these tennis courts shoul�.
have already been put in. He would be interested in having Mr.
Boardman give the timing of the construction of these courts.
N1.r. Boardman said these tennis courts have always been tied to
the development of Phase IV and V of the townhouses and the construction
of the 251 unit apartment building. Mr. Peterson said he didn't
think this had been pointed out to the people.in Innsbruck; because
the. Parks & Recreation Commission has had pressure for two years
about the construction of these tennis courts. This was the reason
for his question.
Mr. Bergman said all of Outlot H was zoned R-3. Was this any
infringement on the R-1 property? Mr. Boardman said it wasn't.
Mr. Bergman asked Mr. Boardman to explain to the audience what was
involved in the approval of a plat.
Mr. Boardman said the process started out as a preliminary plat.
The Public Hearing on a preliminary plat was before the Planning ,
Commission. At that time, they took a look at the grades, location of
structures, sewer and water services, and the type of facilities sueh
as tennis courts and tot lots, etc., and tried to tie everything
together in this area. He said the next step would be the final
plat, which would be considered at a public hearing by the City Council.
Mr. Boardman said that when the rezoning.took pTace on this propT`',�,
it was always considered as a townhouse development, but the R-3 zon__y
allowed for a higher density. As the developer will be having less
units on this site than was originally proposed, the density will meet
�lanning Commission Meeting -' March 3, 1976 Page 7
�he R-1 density requirements.
�� I Mrs. Wahlberg said that she realized that this area has been
�lanned for this type of development all along, but the thing she
as concerned about was the traffic flow. Sh� said that essentially
�11 these roads funnel out to North Innsbruck Drive. The traffic
rom North Innsbruck Drive then goes West out on to Matterhorn or
est out onto Silver Lake Roadc She said that what concerned her
he most was the amount of traffic that was already going �o Silver
�ake Road. She said she,realized this exit was in New Brighton, bu�
it still fit into the total pattern. She wondered if, anyone in New
�righton had been contacted on this.
Mr, Jim London said that when they owned the land in New Brighton,
i we had a plan to develop the land be�ween the Fridley ���d New Brighton
line and Silver Lake Road. We had a plan that was approved by the
ICity to bring North Innsbruck Drive from the end of the�concrete to
Ithe N�w Brighton line, over to tie in with Palmer Drive. He said
Itha� we �o not own �he land now and so have no con�rol over the
Idevelopment of that areaa As far as he knew, there was still a plan
lin New Brighton �o make that connection some day when that land develops
IIt could happen soon, or it could be a few years from now. Righ�
inow there was an easement Lieing Silver Lake Road with North Innsbruck
IDrive, and we have maintained that 2�' blacktop street up to date.
Mrs. Wahlberg said she was sure that many people questioned the
� Imaintenance of that blacktop, and she agreed because she drove that
' Iroad considerably herselfe She said it was used by other people
Ithan just the people or Innsbruck. She fel� this was a very vital
ipart of any development in this area, and should be considered. She
said that if this could be tied inta Palmer Drive, it would ease
ithe traffic problem considerablya
Mr. Londor said their plan caith New Brighton about a year and a
half ago was that 27th Avenue, about a block West of Silver Lake
Road, would tie in with 14th, and go an down and cross North Innsbruck
Drive and would tie into the service drive down by the Ford dealership,
etc. There would no� be a cornnection between North Innsbruck Drive
and Silver Lake Road as we know it today. It would either have gone
North to 14th or South to Palmer Drive.
Mrs. Wahlberg said that if that land has been sold to someone
else, then the access from North Innsbruck Drive to Silver Lake
Road would.become more vital with additional development in this
area. She said this was a major problem now, particularly in the
winter time. She felt that if something wasn't done about this,
then all the traffic generated by these new developments wauld go
into the Fridley street sys�em and this was something that the City
should address itself to.
Mr. Bergman said that �in the adniinist��tive staff report it
� Istates that West Bavarian Pass and P��is�er Road would be 30' streets
' land all other roads in this preliminary plat would be 24'. Mr. Bergman
asked if a 36' width wasn't the standard width for City residential
IIstreets. Mr. Boardman said it was, but these were private roads.
Mr. Boardman said there were a 1ot of 30' and 31' residential streets
Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 8
in the City also.
Mr. Beraman said that if 36' wide streets were good for the
City why �ouldn't they be good for a krivate development. Mr.
Boardman said there would be a problem in widening these roads
because all the units would have to be moved back. He said the
on�y problem with 24' streets was access for emergency vehicles,
but there were 4 off-street parking stalls for each unit, so
there shouldn't be much parking on these streets. In addition
there will be one more stall provided for each 4 units.
� Chairman Harris asked if they were allowing on-street parking
on the 24' streets? Mr.. London said they weren't posted for 'no
parking'. Mr. Boardman said if the 24' street became a problem
for emergency vehicles, he thought the City would ask to have them
posted for no parking.
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Mre Har�is asked the width of tY�� right o� way? Mr. Boardman
said there was no right of way on private roadse Mr. Harris asked
wha't would happen if at some point in time, the City would have
to take over these roads? Mr. Boardman said �he City has said that
they would never take these streets over because they do not meet
the City specifications. Mr. Harris asked who maintained these
streets? Mr. Boardman said the Association took care of them. Mr.
Harris said that from the reaction of the audience, he would suspect
that there was a problem with this, but if there was a request for
the City to take over these streets, then the City would not do it. ^
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Mr. Bergman said that if he remembered correctly from 3+ years
ago, he thought there was discussion that these streets would meet
the City specifications, so that the City take-over of these streets
would be feasible.
Mr. Doug Van Arkel, 5563 East Bavarian Pass, President of the
Townhous� Association, said he would like to discuss problems that
the Board of Directors had noted with this development. He said
it had been discussed that �his be developed in a harmonious and
�nviornmentally sound manner, but the big problem was the roads. He
said they had two problems with �he roads at present. One was a short I
term problem. The roads that were already constructed in the area �
now.were to be maintained by the Association. There would be no way
for construction vehicles to get back to the area under discussion,
to be developed without using the existing roads. We have no firm
commitment to the responsibility of repairing roads damaged by this
heavy eyuipment other than a verbal agreement. We have experienced
along with the Darrel Farr Development Corporation, the developm�nt
problems of the last two years. The problems he has experienced, we
have experienced. If construction equipment should do excessive
damage to our existing roads, we do not feel that it should be the
responsibility of the Association to repair them. He said that if
the development did not go as nicely as �veryone hoped it would, and
th� developer didn't have money to pay for these repairs, then this �1
would be a serious problem for the Association. He said they were
seeking some assurance that these streets would be repaired. Mr. Va._
Arkel said the long range problem with the roads was that he was not
under the impression that the roads met the City standards as far as
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P�lanning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 9
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he top coat. He said we have been living with the width of the
� treets, and he=supposed �hey would continue to live with it. We
uestion whether these roads were constructed to City specifications
a�s to surfacing of residential streets. He said that as the Townhouse
�,ssociation was going to be responsible for maintaining the streets
�n the new addition, and they wanted to make sure that what we have
o start with was maintainable, for the amount of traffic that these
�treets were going to get.
Mr. Van ArYel said the other problem was just something whi�h
e could just ask for cooperation irom the Planning Commission, and
hat was the access to Silver Lake Road. He said that if it took
, 3 or 5 years before the New Brighton property was developed, who
�aill maintain that road. H�. asked if the City of Fridley realized
�hat the Association would not take on the responsibility of the
�aintenance of that road, and it may have to be blocked up. He said
hat everyone in Innsbruck would then have to use the Westerly route
�n Fridley. �
Mr. Van Arkel said that another problem the Association was
xperiencing was -�he parking facilities for the recreation center.
hey are totally ir�adequate, and nothing has been done to ease this
�robleme He said there was room for the parking of approximately
10 automobiles, and they widened Meister Road as it approached the
Irecreation building. We have asked, but we have not received any
Isupport from the developer�, to have the parking facili'cies increased.
� Mrs. Wahlbe�g said that she beli�ved that recreat,_on center had
�been u.sed by outside persons. She said that she remembered that there
jhad been an Innsbruck Boutique sale held in this building. Mr. Van
IArkel said that he hadrn.'t been involved in that, but he believed they
Ihad traffic monitors during that salep to help ease the traffic flow.
Mr. Mike Swenson, 1496 North Innsbruck Drive, said that he had
jtalked to the mayor of New Brighton, and he had assured him that
INew Brighton was no-t going to maintain the exten�ion of Alorth Innsbruck
Drive to Silver Lake Road. He said tila�t if everyone who lived in
�the apartments, the townhouses, and the single family area had to
Icome West on North Innsb�uck Drive, its going to look like Central
IAvenue.
Mr. Harris asked what kind of condition that extension �vas in
jat the present �ime. Mr. Sw�nson said that it was very bad. He
Isaid that when there had been a snowfall, it was about 4' higher on
the sides than it was in the middle. It was like a big dishpan.
Mr. Harris asked how wide this extension was. Mr. Swenson said it
jwas about 24'. Mr. Harris asked how wide it was plowed to. Mrs.
�Wahlberg said she thought it was about 16', but it was an extremely
dangerous road for anyone to travel, with ice. She said that when
you meet someone on this road, you try to get as far to the right
�as you can, but if you slide down, and it was very possible to 30
� Ithat, you collide. She said the maintenanCe has not been good on
� Ithat road, and it was used extensively.
Chairman Harris asked who was responsible for the maintenance
of that road. Mr. Swenson said it was definitely not New Brighton,
Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 10
because it was a private road. Mr. Van Arkel said this private road
did not belong to the Association, so they would assume no responsibility
for the maintenance. �'1
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Chairman Harris asked Mro London if it was the developer's
responsibility to maintain this road? He said that road has to
belong to somebody. Mr. London said he didn't know if it was their
responsiblity. He said they had spent quite a bit of money on this
extension. �
Mrs. Wahlberg asked who was plowing it? Mr. Jim Lukaszewski,
1536 South Oberlin Circle, said it was plowed by the company that
plowed the Association roads. What they do,�was �o make one pass
on the road as they came in�o the Association roads, and make one
pass going out. He said that last year, they had joined together
with the Black Forest Apartment and had some heavy equipment brought
in, and this was paid for jointly by the Association and the Black
Forest Apartment. Chairman Harris �•_id we h�ve a road that doesn°t
belong to anybody.
Mr. Bergman said he had occasionally d�iven on this road, and
he was in general agreement with what had been said at this meeting.
He said that it was his opinion that whether we called this a private
road, and whetiier this was on private property or_ on public property,
it was infact being operated as a City street, and as a through street.
It was a prime collector street, the only way�to get to Silver Lake
Road. He said he recollected quite clearly that 3+ years ago, it
was a responsibility of the Darrel A. Farr Corporation to provide the��
access area to 5ilver Lake Road. He said this meant adequate width,
adequate surface and adequate maintenance, and safe transport.
Mr. Peterson said that there seems to be an agreement that the
City would never take over the maintenance of private roads. He
asked if the City had a special arrangement with Innsbruck North that
they don't pay the same taxes as the rest of us pay.
Mr. Steve Tollison, 5538 Meister Road, said that the large majority
of people who used the No��h �nnsbruck Drive extension were Fridley
residents. He said that he caught a bus at this corner, and it was
a very dangerous place to have to walk to catch this bus also. He
said he had talked to the City Assessor and the City Attorney about
taxes. He asked if there was any difference in the tax base because
we maintain our own streets and some other things. He said the
answer was no, we had the same tax base as any other area in Fridley.
Mr. Peterson said he thought we were on shaky ground on this tax
situation, and he would like an opinion from the City Attorn�y on this.
Chairman Harris asked Mr. London the specifications on the
private roads. Mr. London said they all had at least a 4" base with
a 2" mat. There were some that were built with a deep strength
asphalt, anticipating construction access to the South. He said this
would be West Bavarian Pass. He said he believed that street had
a 4 1/2" base with a 1 1/2" mat. Mr. Harris asked why these streets�--1
were breaking up. Mr. London said there were cracks •where the�
center line joi.ns and where the street joined the driv�ways. He said
there were a few alligata�rspots, which yoiz can expect in that type of
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la.nning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 11
oil, especially �hen you have deep sewer and water�cuts. He said
� hat generally he didn't see any more break ups in this area than he
� aw on any City street in this type of soil.
,
Mr. R. G. Rumpsa, 1481 North Innsbruck Drive; Mr. Donald Peterson,
595 Matterhorn; Niro Terry Wiley 5571 East Bavarian Pass N.E..,
nd Mr. Ken Bureau, 5530 West Danube Road, all had comments on tne
orth Innsbruck Drive extension, and the big problem it was for this
rea.
Mr. Rumpsa said there has been discussion on closing this road,
ut the City of New Brighton needs that access for fire protectiono
e also said that Norih.Innsbruck Drive was a race track and he
hought there should be more stop signs on this street to slow 'the
raf f ic down o
Mr. Langenfeld said it seemed to him tha�t the people in Innsbruck
ave asked the City many times to heip them with diirerer�'c problems,
�a nd he has never seen any reply to these concerns. It seems like they
i�re totally ignored. He then asked Mr. Farr that if he was going
to buy a townhouse, would there be any stipulations as to the maintenancE
laf roads, etc. What kind of an agreement would there be? He said
jthat i� he was going to buy a townhou.se, he would want to know that
lit was accessib7�-�in the winter and summer. Mr. Farr said tha� the
Ihomeowners themselves administer the entire Associationo He said
Ithe Association owned the roads, and was responsible for snow plowing
the maintenance of the roads, upkeep of the buildings and the
Inatural areas. He sa�d they were responsible for all the private
Iroads in the area, wiich the exception oi North Innsbruck Drive which
iwas a State Aid roade Mr. Mike Swenson said that all the homeowners
lpaid $43 a month to the Assocation for a variety of services, so
it was the residents of the area who have assumed the burden of
maintenancee
Mr. Farr said that it was obvious that something was going to
have to be done with the extension of North Innsbruck Drive until
the area in New Brighton was developed, and North Innsbruck Drive
was extended to Palmer Road. He said that Fridley wouldn°t want
to maintain a road in New Brighton. He said �hat he wasn°t developing
anything in this area, and he couldn°t do it because he didn't have
any money, at this point in time. He said the homeowners in the area
weren't going to do it. He said he didn't know who was going to
develop this road, but he was willing to take on the burden of
u�agradin� this road until such time that North Innsbruck Drive was
completed as a State Aid Road, but he couldn't do this until he
had some funds to do it with. Chairman Harris asked Mr. Farr if he
had an agreement with New Brighton that tliey would designate this
section of North Innsbruck Drive as a State Aid Road. Mr. Farr said
they wouldn't do that until there was a develapment plan for the
area in New Brighton, and the street patterns were worked out for
that development.
�� Mrs. Wahlberg said that she had talked to someone from the New
IBrighton Planning.Commission and as far as they knew, there wouldn't
jbe any plans coming in for this area until 1977 or 1978.
Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 12 ,
Mrs. Wahlberg asked Mr. Farr if he didn't own all the property
in New Brighton up to Silver Lake Road at the time this property was /''�
rezoned. He said that he did, but subsequently the bank took the �
property. Mrs. Wahlberg said that in the original agreement she
remembered that he was responsible for maintaining this road up
to Silver Lake Roado Mr. London said that this property was now
owned by the bank.
Mrs. Wahlberg hsked how much the townhouse units in this
proposed plat would sell for? Mr. Farr said they would range in
area from 1200 square feet to 2,240 square feet and would sell in
the range of $45,000 to $60,000. They would range from 2 bedrooms to
5 bedrooms. They will be compatible in design to the townhouses in
Phase I, II, and III.
Mr. Van Arkel asked if he could request the City Engineer to
take core sampZes of Eas� Bavarian Pass, ��est Bavaiian Pass, and
Meister Road, so that once and for all, we would know what was there,
and the City would know what was there. Mr. Harris said the City
wouldn't do that on private roads. They would have to make their
own tests.
Mr. Harris asked how far the average unit set back from the
street. Mr. London said the minimum was 20'. Mr. Harris asked Mr.Van
Arkel if they had a problem with snow storage. Mr. Van Arkel said
there really wasn't any place �o put the snow, so it was loaded into
trucks and piled in the ponding area. Mr. Dick Peterson, 5554 �1
Wa�ideck Crossing, said that a longer setback wouldn't make any
difference. They would still have the same prablem. He said the
driveways were part of the street, and they were all plowed at the
same time. Mr. Harris asked if they had berms or curbs on the
streets. Mr. Peterson said they had full curbs except where the
driveways were. Mre Harris asked if the streets were crowned. Mro
Peterson said they were.
Mr. Harris told Mr. London that there had been some question on
the parking facilities for the recre�tion building. Were the present
parking stalls and the parking on Meister Road done as, proposed. on the
original plan. Mr. London--said he didn't know if it was the original
plan, but it was done according to an approved plan. He said he
would want to talk to the Board of Directors of the Association before
he mad.e any recommendations for changing the parking in this area. He
said there were a lot of tr�es and a ponding area close to this recre-
ation building.
Mr. Rumpsa said that Mr. London has said that every effort would
be made to save as many trees as possible. He said it should be
noted that a change in grade can be very hard on oak trees, and with
the problem of oak wilt, all the healthy trees should be saved. He
said that he had used tiling around his trees to save them, and he
thought more care should be taken to save the trees. Mr. Harris said
the City Naturalist would be working with the Darrel Farr Corporatior��
on this development, and it was hoped that this would save more of t.
trees.
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lanning Commission Meeting -�Zarch 3, 1976 Page 13
�
�OTION by Wahlberg, seconded by Peterson, that the Public Hearinq
Ibe closed on the consideration of a preliminary p1at, P.S. #76-OZ, by
n� Darrel Ae rarr DeveZopment Corporation. Upon a voice vote, alI voting
aye, Chairman Harris declared the Public Hearing closed at 9:40 P.M.
Mr. Bergman said he had listed some concerns that have been
mentioned by the people of North Innsbruck, and by the members_of the
Planning Commission. Concern� directed heavily towards the Darrel
Farr Corporation, some questions dir�cted to the City, and he felt
hese �oncerns needed consideration before they could give any sort
of approval of the plate He said he would li}:e to hear some comments
Ifrom the ather members of the Planning Commission before he listed
I�hese concerns.
Mr, Langenfeld said he th�?����;ht the saving of as m.any trees as
possible would be a concern. �� said that it states in the administra-
:�:ive report that qui�te a few tr_e�s wouZd have to be removede
Mr. Boaidman said that in previous developments by Darrel Farr
they had saved as mai�y trees as they could, and with �he help of Dan
Huff, the naturaZist� he was sure that they would save as many trees
as possible.
Mr. Peterson said he was concerned about trees, but when we were
discuss.ing the preservation of trees on private property he thought-this
was kind of shaky ground. He thought the City should mare legitimately
^ be•aoncerned with the streets and the traffic flow in this area. He
� said that as the Chairman oi the Parks & Recreation Commission, his
concern and that was when we had the people from Tnnsbruck North
appearing before his Commission about tennis courts that should be
put in, he would like to see the time, the place, and the funding
for these tennis courts, instead of just a stipulation that a-t som�
jfuture time they would be built.
Mr. Langenfeld said �that he felt the extension road of North
Innsbruck Drive was a major headache, and he said he would like to
see some solutian found for this access before someone was killedo
He said that any subsequen�t development in this area would only
compound the problema
Mrs. Wahlberg said she thought they should bear in mind that
the original proposal for this part of Innsbruck had a much larger
amount of units, and that they had preliminary approval for that
many units at that timee Probably the key to this now was the
road situation. Tra�fic patterns which have developed in the first
three phases of the townhouse development had made her have grave
reservations about the traffic problems with the development of two
more townhouse areas that were being considered at this time. She
thought that even if these were private roads, the City had the
responsibility of stepping in on a main funnel street.
' Chairman Harris ask�Zd Mr. Boardman how this fit into the.Comp�e-
!'�'� hensive Plan? Mr. Boardman said it fit in very well. Mr. Harris...
asked about the utilities? Mr. Boardman said they all have to meet
the City specifications. Mr. Harris asked who guaranteed the work.
Mr. London said they had the standard con�ract with the company that
Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 14
did'the work, 1 year. He said the contractor used the City specifi-
cations for water and storm sewers and the sanitary sewer.
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MOTIDN by Bergman, seconded by Peterson, that the Planning
Commission continue until March 17, 1976, the consideration of a
preliminary p1at, P.S. #76-01, Innsbruck North Townhouse IV and V '
Addition, by Darrel A. Farr Development Corporation, being a replat
of Outlot H, Innsbruck Nozth Addition, generally located South of
Innsbruck North Townhouses, Phase I, II, and III, until the following
concerns have been addressed:
The Darrel Farr Development Corporation apply attention to
questions asked at this meeting, such as;
I. Streets do not meet the City specifications.
2. Clarification of street maintenance, in particular on the
Norih Innsbruck Drive extension to Silver Lake Road.
3. C1�rification of time period involved in tennis courts & tot lots
4. Need of assurance by the Association that streets used
during construction will be repaired and maintained.
5. Re-evaluate the adequacy of parking facilities for the
recreation center.
6. Review if there was a need to only a11ow off street parking. �
The City Administration should:
1. Clarify the City street specifications and compare them to
the specifications in Innsbruck.
2. Arovide a 1ega1 opinion on the street maintenance versus
equal taxation questzon.
3.' Communicate with the City of New Brighton in regard to access
to 5ilver Lake Road as far as improvement and the State Aid
designation situation, and their plans on construction of an
alternate route.
A1r. Harris said a concern he had was if the access to Silver
Lake Road was cut off, what would be the alternate traffic pattern
for this area. He thought the City Engineering staff should address
this problem immediately.
Mr. London said that during their work with New Brighton, they
had a consultant do a traffic study, and he thought the City of
New Brighton had a traffic study done also. He said that at that
time they were considering alternate access�to Silver Lake Ro��;'
Whether it be 14, North Innsbruck Drive or Palmer Drive, it was
determined at that time that Palmer Drive was the best intersection ��
It was also determined that there would be more than enough capacity
to handle all of the traffic from this area. At that time we were
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�lanning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 � Page 15
T .
n �lanning 850 units in the R-3 zoned property, and now this proposal
1 �as down below 650 unitse We were also proposing at that time, to
�ave over 350 units betw.een Fridley and Silver Lake Road, which also
oul� have been funneled �o this intersection. He said that when
he Palmer Drive intersec�ion was completed, the traffic patterns
�i11 work for this area.
Chairman Harris asked what we were going to do in the meantime?
e said that might not ha�pen for 5 years in New Brighton. He said
e hoped that Mr. Farr would be successful with these two townhouse
�. �evelopments, but without a good acccss to Silver Lake Road, he
thought it would be one�big probleme
�I Mr. Langenfeld said this acccess was important from the safety
tandpoint too and for access for fire protection and o�her emerg�ncy
�ehicles,
�I Mrs. �ahlberg said that when the City was checking on the
cc�ssibility for this area perhaps the City could address itself
bne more time to the speed problem on North Innsbruck Drive, and
�ee if any additional stop signs would help solve the problem. She
�said that traveling West on North Innsbruck Drive that there should
� a warning sign as yau come around the curve to the e�isting s�op
Isign, that there was a s�op sign ahead. She said she had seen a lot
of people zip through �his stop sign because they didn°t know it was
n Ithere, pa�ticularly on the ice.
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I�pon a voice vote, a11 vofing aye, the motion carried unanimouslu.
MOTION by Peterson, seconded by Bergman,- thai the PZanning
jCommission continue until March 17, 1976, the consideration of a
Itownhouse development of 100 units, T-#76-01, by Darrel A. Farr
Development Corporation, for Innsbruck North Townhouses IV and V
j�dditions. Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried
lunanimously.
i4. PUBLIC HEARING: CQNSIDERATION OF A PRELIMTNARY PLAT, P.S. �76-02,
INNSBRUCIC VILLAGE, BY DARREL A. FARR DEVELOPMENT CORPORATTONo
Being a replat of Outlot B, Innsbruck North Addition, along with
•Lot 49, except the Vaesterly 210', Auditor's Subdivision No. 92,
generally located North of N�rth Innsbruck Drive N.E. and West
I of.the Black Forest Apartment.
I5. CONSIDERATION OF A TOWNHOUSE DEVELOPMENT OF 100 UNITS, T-#76-02,
BY DARREL A, FARR DEVELOPMENT CORPORATIOPI, FOR INNSEiRUCK VILLAG�.
Nir. Darrel Farr, Mr. Jim London, and.Mr. John Klick, architect
Ifor the townhouse development in Innsbruck Village were present.
MOTION by Peterson, seconded by Wahlberg, that the P.Zanninq
,+� �Commission open the Public Nearing on the consideration of a pxeliminary
' 1 Ip1a�, P,S. #76-02, Innsbruck V.illage, by Darrel A. Farr Development
�Corporation. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, Chairman Harris �
declared the Public Nearing open at 10:02_P.M. �
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 16
Mr. Boardman said this preliminary plat was for the construction �
of 100 townhouse units in what was the site location for a 251 unit �
apartment building. Ther� will be a public street in this plat whict.
will be West Bavarian Pass. The spur roads off of the public street
will be private streets. There will be a separate townhouse assoeiation
for the townhouses in this plat.
Mr. Bergman asked for clarification of the public road as far
as City specifications. Mr. Boardman said this public road would
have a 50' right of way and the street would be 31' wide.
Mr. Boardman said there will be 25 structures, with 4 units to
a structure. They are 'for sale! property, they are not �ental
property.
Mr. Farr said they had a model buil� for this development which
they had at the meeting. They thought this would help explain this
development to the Planning Commission and to the people in the
audience. It shows the topography of the plat and how the units �ili
be located on the plat, and how they relate to the street and each
other. Mr. Farr said the units were designed to have two rambler
type units in the front with full basements, with two units behind
that were either rambler units, with a storage area all on the same
level, or units with a walk-out basements He said they managed to
keep the streets on one side of all units, so the streets don't go
on both sides as they would in a typical 4-unit building. He said ^
a problem in most townhouse developments was that when you drive � �
down tfie street you see a row of garage doors. This was true in the
exis-ting developmente In this development, we brought all the
driveways in on the side of the garages so th.e_ front will be the
facade instead of the garage doors. Mr. Klick said the units that
were faced to the green space would have attached garages which helped
alleviate the row of garages facing the front. He said the design
of the uni�s provided for driveways and garage doors to be on the
lower part of the hill, and as the slope of the land decreases, the
units step up that slope, so there would be less cutting of the land,
and that was an aid to the retention of the tree cover.
Mrse Wahlberg said that these were the units that you were asking
a blanket variance on. Mr. K1ick explained which units would need
the variance.
Mr. Langenfeld asked why there wasn't a public road in other
tawnhouse developments. Mr. London said they have learned a lot
about townhouse development since they started, or else there probably
would have been a public road in the other developments. Mr. Farr
said he didn't think the City wanted a public road at that point in
time.
Mr. R. G. Rumpsa said he was concerned about the price range
of these townhouses. Sbme of the single family homes were in the
$150,000 bracket and he didn't think that moderately priced townhousr'`�
were compatible with that type of home. He thought these townhouses
would detract from the property values of the single family homes.
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l�lanning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 17 -
Mr. Farr said that before one single family lot was sold the
�omplete plan proposal was completed, and the peopl� who bought
�khose lots knew that this particular site was for a 251 unit apari:ment
c�omp�.ex. H� said this proposal has been changed to have only 100
�nits on this property, which would be owner occupied townhouses. They
ould be small units, but they were well designed and would be a good
ransition from the Black Forest Apartment complex. He said the price
�ange of the apartments in this complex was $150 to $210 a month. The
eople who could afford to purchase a townhouse in the $32,Q00 to
39,000 range would be compatible to the people who lived in �this
�.partment complex. He thought people of all incoine ranges should be
�.ble to live in Innsbruck if they so desired, and that this townhouse
�levelopmen� was good socio-economic planning.
Mre Rolar�d Stinski said that he had jus-t purchased a lot on
Arthur Street for $14,QOOP and he was concerned abc�ut �he elevatians
lon this proposed plat, and what that woul.d do to his loto He wondered
if his lot was going to ber,ome usele.�s, or what.
.Mre Lonc�on found Mro Stinski's lot on Arthur Street and told
jhim how this plat with the structures would relate to his lo-�e Mro
IStinski asked when they planned to star-t construction of these
Itownhouses? Mr. Farr said he would like to start as soon as he
�had approval from the City�
Mr. Stinski asked if the Ci�ty street had been approved? Mr<
IBoardman said tha�t was all in the cansideratcion of the plat. Mr.
iBoardman said that he had been in contact with the F.HeA. and they
were going away from all private streets in a townhouse d.evelop�te����
and were now looking for public streets. We do have some private
stree�L-s in this pla�, but FeH.A. was agreeable to �.1iat.
Nir. Boardman said that Mr. Farr was reducing �the density on
jthis plat so that it meets the R-1 requirements although this praperty
Iwas zoned R-3 except for that part of Lot 49 that was included in
Ithis plat, which was zoned R-1.
Mr. S�tinski said that �the single family development in Innsbruck
jwas just starting to go good in this area, and he didn't think the
ICity should jeopardize this developmen�c with something that could be
Idetrimental to the area. He said he thought they should take a good
jlook at the amount of traffic that would be generated by more developme�i�
iin this area.
Mr. Donald Peterson, 5595 Matterhorn Drive, said he was concerned
about the traffic flow, as oth�rs. He said that he didn't think any
one could argue with the planning of having townhouses as a transition
from the apartment complex to the single family homes. He said he
did question the diff�rence in grade for the townhouse units, which
was up to 20' in some places. He said the type of construction would
limit the design of these townhonses, than if they were on a flatter
piece of ground. He said that on the other plat discussed at this
meeting, the townhouses were more expensive, and they were being built
in units of 2 to lessen the need for cut and fill. This area was
just as heavily wooded, and yet these townhouses were being built in
I units of 4, and he didn't understand the logic of that.
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 18
Mr. Peterson said he also questioned why two of these units
would only be about 10' from the property line.
Mr. Farr said he couldn't respond to this without getting quite
upse�. He said he didn't feel that the people living in the single
family homes in Innsbruck had any more right to live in Innsbruck
than the people who will live in this area, as he had said before.
Mr. Farr said that Mr. Stinski was one of the largest landlords in
the Metropolitan area, and he didn't feel that the testimony he had
given at this meeting did him credit.
Mr. John Kl�ick said he would like to respond to some of the
comments made on the pr.oposed units for this development. He said
these units were designed expressly for a difference in grade of
10 to 15 feet. He said they would not work on a flat piece of land.
They were units that were one story on one side and two story unit
on the upper side of the slope, giving both units the availability
of a walk-out type af situation. He said that it was not a true
statement that units couldn't be designed for this type of slope
situation.
6
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Mr. Harris asked Mr. Boardman if this followed the comprehensive
plan. Mr. Boardman said it did.
Mrs. Wahlberg said tha� she noticed that most af the single family
development was North of N��Lh Innsbruck Drive N.E. She asked
Mr. Farr if he had ever considered having tne more expensive townhousgs
' 1
on this plat, and the smaller townhouses on the other plat? i
Mr. Farr said they hadn't. He said there were more single family
lots 5outh of North Innsbruck Drive than there were North of North
Innsbruck Drive.
Mr. Rumpsa said the lake separated the single family homes from
the townhouse area South of Nor�h Innsbruck Drive. It was a natural
barrier.
Mr. Rumpsa asked about the homes started in the single family
area South of North Innsbruck Drive, that have never been completed,
and how many unsold townhouses there were. He asY.ed if these w�re
just going to be left standing, and if both these plats wauld be
started at the same time, with the same results.
Mr. Farr said that he didn't own the R-1 lots and had nothing to
do with the construction of homes on these lots. He said that he
only had two unsold townhouses in the developed area. When he had
approval of these two new plats, he planned to start construction
immediately. He would like to start this construction this spring,
and both plats would be constructed at the same time.
Mr. Langenfeld asked Mr. Farr if he had any kind of report on
what response he would have as to the occupancy of the new units. /�
Mr. Farr said he hadn't had a formal feasibility study made, but .
they have 60 to 70 couples a.week going through the model, if that
was any indication of the interesfi in townhouses.
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�lanning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1:976 Page 19
'MQTION by Langenfeld, secol�ded by Bergman, that the Plann.ing
C�ommission close the Public Hearing on the consideration of a prelimin-
ry p1at, P.S. #76-02, Innsbruck Village, by the Darrel A. Farr
evelopment Corporation, Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, Chairman
arris declared the Public Hearing closed at 10:35 P.M.
Mr. Bergman said there seemed to be some discrepancy between
�he portion of Lot 49 that was considered part of this property, and
hat was platted. Mr. Boardman said there was, and it was one of
-he stipulations that Mr. Farr deed to the City that part of I�ot 14
ot needed for this p1at, to be included with Innsbruck.Park.
Mrs. Wahlberg said that many of the questions tha'c we had
}�iscussed on the previous plat are r�levant to �chis plat, particularly
�the traffic flow, so maybe this preliminary plat should be tabled
�also.
1�IDTION by Langenfeld, secanded by WahZber�, that the P1a..n�ng
ICommission continue until March .Z7, I976, the consideration of a
ipreliminary p1at, P.S. #76-02, Innsbruck Village, by Darrel A. Farr
IDevelopment Corporation, being a replat of Out.Zot B, Innsbruck North
I�ddition, along with Lot 49, except the Westerly 210', Auditor's
ISubdivision No. 92, generally Zocated North of North Innsbruck Drive
iN.E. and West of the B1ack Forest Apartment, because the questions
asked on the other p1at, would have to be considered in a determination
on this p1at. Upon a voice vote, a.Z.Z voting aye, the motion carried
unanimously.
MOTIOIJ by Bergman, seconded by Langenfeld, that the P.Zanning
ICommission continue until March 17, .Z976, the consideration of a
Itownhouse deve2opment of 100 Units, T-�{76-02, by Darrel A. Farr
iDevelopment Corporation, for Innsbruck Village. Upon a voice vote,
Ia1I voting aye, the motion carried unanimously.
Chairman Harris declared a recess at 10:40 P.M. and reconvened
jthe meeting at 11:05 P.M.
�6. CONTZNUED: REVIEW OF PREAPPLICATION FOR COMMUNITY DEVELOPM�NT
BLOCK GRANT
_ __ _
I Mr. Boardman said the preapplication for a Community Development
Block Grant that was in the agenda was the revised rea lication
P AP
that was requested by the Planning Commission at their meeting of
February 18, 1976. He said that he had handed them a copy of the
Metro Council A-95 review of thi�s preapplication. This review was
on the revised preapplication that the Planning Commission now had.
Mr. Boardman said they had dropped the proposals tor obtaining
the property North of City Hall for a Civic Center and for the
acquisition of 10 lots in the Riverview Heights area. He said he
had talked to John lCari from the Metropolitan Council who said that
Fridley had a much better chance for funding without these two
proposals also. He said that all the funding requests now�pertained
to the housing plan.
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Planning Commissian Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 20
Mr. Boardman said he had also b�en in touch with Marcia ,,-�
Bennett from the Metropolitan Council and she said that Fridley �
was now ranked six�h for funding consideration and she thought
Fridley had a good chance of getting this funding. He said the
funding request was for $50,000.
Mr. Peterson asked why the Riverview Heights proposal had
been dropped. Mr. Boardman said that it didn't fit in too well
wi�h the housing plan, but that after a Parks & Recreation Compre-
hensive Plan and a Critical Area Plan had been developed, they
could probably apply for funding at that time.
MOTION by Pet�rson, seconded by Berg�an, that the Planning
Commission recommended to Council approval of the preapp2ication
for a Community Development Block Grant. Upon a voice,vote, a11
voting ayE, the motion carried unanimously.
7. CONTINUED: RECEIVE NOTICE OF CONTINUATION OF PUBLIC HEARING
IN THE MATTER OF THE R�COMMENDATION BY THE METROPOLITAN COUNCIL
THAT THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER CORRIDOP. BE DESIGNATED BY THE GOVERNOR
AS A CRITICAL AREA.
Lee Ann Sporre of the Environmental Quality Commission was present.
Mr. Boardman said there was a Public Hearing in June on the �
develo�ment of Critical Areas, at which time the City did make
their recommendations. He said the recommendations on changes
would be going to Public Hearing again on March 11, and they
want all comments on the recommendations by March 31.
Mr. Boardman said the reason this was
Environmental Quality Commission and �he
just for the review to see if there were
�hat you migh� want to make.
brought back to the
Planning Commission was
any other recommendations
Mr. Boardman said that one of the recommendations made by the
Environmental Quality Com�tission was that if Highway #169 and East
River Road was not included in the criti.cal area, then it should be,
because these were used for access into the critical area. They
were also concerned with the effect that East River Road would have
on critical areas, because of traffic noise, etc.
Mr. Langenfeld said the recommendations made by the Environmental
Quality Commission were on page 4 and 5 of their minutes of
February 17, 1976. He said that this became an item of concern
because of the schools and school children along the River also. He
said they felt this should be more people minded.
, Mr. Peterson said there had been some discussion at a Pa�ks &
Recreation Commission meeting about a proposal by Anoka County to ��
upgrade the river and provide accessiblity to the River in Fridley !
as a central location for this access for a boarding facility.
Mr. Boardman said that when a river was designated as a critical
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�lanriing Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 21 �
�rea, there were certain rule� and regulations set up for the
�protection of that river. He said that the critical area corridor
�n Fridley w�s designated to be from Highway #169 to East River Road.
�7hen they establish an area as a critical area, they lay out ce�tain
�ules and regulations as to land use and -the land requirements along
�hat river.corridor. This Critical Area Act was for the protection
f our natural resources. He said that if the Mississippi River
�as going to be used for boating or canoeing, there would have to
ie some dredging bec�use it gets pretty shallow in a couple of areas.
Mr. Peterson asked Mr. Boardman if he had seen the plan from i�lie
�ounty where the bikeways, trailways, etc. were all tied togethero
�ecause th�re was something in this plan about boat access to the
�lississippi. River. Mr.� Boardman said he hadn°t seen anyth.ing from
he County at alle He said he hadn't seen anything down on paper,
nc1 thought it was just at th.e talking s-L-age at this timeo
Mr. Harris �sked how the critica'. area corridor would afiect
1�he existing development in that areao Mr. Boardman sazd it wouldn°t
k�av� any effect in Fridley whatsoevero He said that if they used
�the bluff line, then it could affec�L some property, but they �aere
�ZSing the river banlc. He said �he heiyht rcquirement wouldn't appljT,
�u� the 40' se�tback lrom �he river bank would apply, and there weren.'t
iany houses under that minimum rec�uiremen-co
Mro Harris asked what was considered the river bank? Mre Boara?�an
Isaid it was �the norma� hic�h water line o
Mr. Eoardman said he didn'� anticipa�te too many problems with
Ithe designation of a cri�tical area corridor, but the Environmental
jQuality Commission had brought out some things that he hadn't thouqh�c
of beforeo One of their questions was that if this was designated
�as a criicical area, what effect would the noise from Ea�i:. River Road
Ihave on that r�creational area and the actual preservation of that
Iriver.
Mr. Boardman said the critical area designation didn't c�eal with
�the use o� the river, but the use of the property along -L-he�.banks.
Mrse Wahlberg asked if motorized traffic was allowed on the
�River...and�:what if someane wanted -to construct a restauran� on the river.
�Mr. 'Harris said he.couldn't think of any site in Fridley N. of 694
Iwhere a rest'aur�nt could be located.
Mr. Boardman said that I.694 was �the breaking point of two
jclassifications in the critical area designation. North of I.694
�it�was classified as residential, and South of I.694, it was
�classified as an area of industrial development and different rules
�and regulations applied.
LeeAnn.. Sporre said that this '
IEnvironmental Quality Cammission,
jfor this meeting, and it was her
� �a report ready for this meeting.
. .
item had been discussed at the
and they had done some research
understanding the Staf f wauld- �ave -� --
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Planning Commission P4eeting - March 3, 1976 Page 22 _
Mr. Boardman said he wasn't thinking in terms of preparing a
report of the Environm�.ntial Quality Commission's recommendations. He,-^�
was thinking of the Planning Commission reviewing the recommendationd`
of the EQC, and with the Planning Commission recommendations, prepare
a draft copy that would be presented to the City Council.
Mr. Langenfeld said the recommendations made by the Environmental
Quality Commission were on things that they wanted changed
in the designation of the Mississippi River Corridor.
Mrs. Sporre said that she was an environmentalist, and she was
concerned about the conditions in Fridley and of quality water, but
was also concerned about the effect on people. She didn't think the
plan addresses the effect on people and their ability to enjoy the .
river as much as a beaver does. She said that people have a tolerance
level and studies have proved that noise pollution does affect a
person's abili�y to learn and to appreciate. She said that ;f all
of Eas� River Road and all of Highway #169 was included in the river
corridor, all these��things would ha�� to be addressed.
Mr. Boardman said that the Environmental Quality Commisssion did
make the recommendation that these roads be included in the Mississippi
River Corridor, and the effect that the noise woald have on people
who lived within the critical �rease He said he wasn't entirely sure
that the reason the critical areas were set up was for the people who
werE living on the banks of the river. The critical areas legislation�
was for the protection of the rivero from the land uses along the
river banks.
Chairman Harris said that it seemed to him that this was written
up "thing" oriented instead of people oriented. We aren't worried
about the people, we were worried about a"thing", a river. He
said this did not address the people using the river or it's banYs.
Mrs. Sporre said that if we didn°t say that we needed that river, no
one else was going to say it.
Mr. Boardman said that East River Road was included in the
critical areas designation because of the noise problem, why should
we limit it to just this road and Highway �169, strictly within the
critical areas, because this did not deal with the legislation of
the Critical Areas Act. It also doesn't deal with what effect motor
boats on the river would have on the land uses either. It also does
not deal with uses ou�side of the critical areas having an effect on
what was happening within the boundaries of the critical area.
MOTION by Lang�nfeld, seconded by Bergman for discussion, tha� Mr.
��ardman••includ� a11 the recommendations made by the EnvironmentaT
�uality Commission showing their position in his final report, with
emphasis on the deadline date.
Mr. Boa�dman said your position was shown in your minutes, and
these minutes would be going to the City Council along with the ��
Planning Commission recommendation. Mr. Boardman said he was lookin �
for direction. Did the Planning Commission support the Environmental
Commission that a draft should be drawn up supporting the position of
the EQC? .
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lanni�ng Commission Meetinq - March_3, 1976
Paqe 23
Mr, Bergman said that on this people v�rsus thing discussion,
Y�e felt this was an ecology item, and it was the same thing as save
t$he trees, save the forest, and save the river. He said that he felt
t�he ultimate benefii: of all these things werz the geneical public, so
t$his.can be related back to peoplee
Mr. Harris said that he felt it should be stated in the legisla�tion
hat this was the purpose of the Critical Areas Act, for the benefit
f people.
Mr. Boaidman said that if �ast River Road was included in the
ritical areas designation, then the legislation would have to
irect its attention to what that noise was doing to the people.This
oise �ras from a source that had nothing to do with the river. This
as why he ques'cioned that East River Road and Highway #169 should
e included in the critical areas corridor,
Mro Bergman asked what the Env��romm�ntal Quality Com.*nission
as proposing. Do they want to move the highway? What was �he
lternative. A7r. Boardman said the intcent of Lhe EQC was that the
Qise and effect on th� people from East River Road should be incluc�cd
'n the critical areas corridoro Mr. Harris said it did have an effec-t
n the river, because of the storm �aater that drains off af it, because
Qf .the chemicals used on it, it does have an effect on the wa�er
�uality of the river. A11 you have to do was look at an outlet goiY�g
p�nto the river to see what was going into �.�t,
Mre Peterson said. he shared Mra Boardman's concernso He said he
�aas in favor of protecting the river, whether they were talking about
� scenic river designation as they in other parts of the State, or
critical areas designati+bn, that they were discussing for Fridleye
e said he thought they could make the designated critical area so
�road that it would take it out of the scope of the legislature. He
saicl that he didn't see how they could change East River Road, when
Ithis road was part af other communities. He said that if cve were
�going to be worried about the noise on East River Road, then we had
Ito worry abaut the noise on University Avenue and Central Avenue. He
Isaid that all this noise impacts upon the people, but he didn't think
Ithis was what the Planning Commission should be addressing. He said
Ithat they were considering the Mississippi River from point A to point
B and whe�her it should be designated as a critical area. He said he
ifelt�that when you were protecting a river, you were protecting the
people. He said he supported Mr. Boardman's position because he
Ididn't feel it was germane to include all �these areas in the designation.
Mrs. Sporre said that if Highway #169 and East River Road were
lincluded in the designation, it would not chanq� the world, but it would
give us the opportunity to say that Fridley recognizes the river ;.0
ibe a recreational outlet, being a very sen�itive area and needing
�very careful control, and that the entrance door was the River Road.
She felt that all the citizens of Fridley would benefit from this
Istatement of concern.
Chairman Harris asked Mr. Boardman what the difference was in
the Critical Areas �1ct and tY�e Departmerit of Natural Resaurces
Shoreline Regulations? Mr. Boardman said'as far as he knew there
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Planning Commission Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 24 �
hadn't been a decision, but this would be controlled by one or the
other, it couldn't be both. He thought that the Missisippi River
would be under the Critical Areas Act, and the lake and other public �"'1
bodi�s of water in the community would be under Shoreland Management r
Mr. Boardman said that he felt that by including East River Road
in the Critical Areas, they would be short changi�.g the problem.
There were more probl�ms with East River Road than what could be
handled in having this included in the Mississippi River Corric�or.
He said that if it was so designated, what could happen would be
in direct conflict with what the Environmental Commission wanted
to happen. If this was part of the Critical Area, they could,request
that the road be upgraded to provide more access to the River, and
request that this be more of a scenic route, so the traffic would
be increased, which would just add to the noise pollution.
Mrs. Sporre said the EQC made other recommendations other than
having East River Road and Highway #:_69 included in the Mississippi
River Corridor.
Mr. Bergman thought the alternative to Mr. Langenfeld's motion
would be to go through the Environmental Quality Commission's
minutes and discuss each motion and decide if they agreed o�' disagreed.
Mr. Peterson saicl he wasn't comfortable with the present motion,
because he didn't know wha� he was voting for.
Mrs. Wahlberg said that she thought the East River Road problem �
would be better addressed by the proposed East River Road Planning
Committee, as was propased in the EQC minutes. She said this Committ�
could work with other communities and other government levels, such
as the County Board. She said she had trouble equating the problems
of East River Road with river protection.
MR. LANGENFELD WITHDREW HIS MOTION. Mr. Bergman, who had seconded
the motion for d.iscussion, agreed.
Mr. Langenfeld said he would suggest a more thorough examination
of.these minutes, to see what proposals the Planning Commission agreed
to, to give Mr. Boardman the direction he requested.
Mr. Boardman said one of the points brought out by the EQC was
on the silent clause. He said that what this clause said was that
if the Metropolitan Council hadn't responded to a plan in a certain I
amount of time, it was automatically adopted. He said that if the �
City submi�ted a plan to the Metropolitan Council, he thought that
should be subject to review, and not just let it go through without
a review. There shoulc7 be an extension of the time limit, and he
thought they should be responsible to reply within that time limit.
He said that when a plan was presented to the Metropolitan Council
we were asking their review of this plan, and he didn't think ichey
should have the out of not reviewing it, and just letting it go through.
Mr. Bergman said that he thought th� Planning Commission should
take the proposals from the EQC minutes and vote on them item by ite��
Chairman Harris agreed.
�.,,.a»'_�-�°.�_
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L�1Nr1ING COMMISSION MEETING - March 3, 1976 Page 25
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MOTION by Bergman, seconded by Peterson, that
� �ion did not concur with the proposal to add No.
etter "a", stating �ransportat.ion facil.ities �near
�reas �osing noise pollution sha.Zl be avoided and
oice vote, Bergman, Peterson and Wahlberg votzng
�nd Langenfeld abstaining, the motion carried.
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the Planning Commis-
13 on page 12, under
schools or resir3ential
corrected. Upon a
aye, Harris nay,
Mr. Pergman said he had made the motion because he felt
�.he stated addition was no� germane to the problem:
MOTION by Wahlberg, seconded by Lancrenfeld, that the Planning
�ommission agree with the recommendaiion made by the Envir�nmental �
uality'Commission on "h" an page 19. '
Mr. Peterson called for a point of order. He asked if a vo'te
�n favor of this motion meant that we did not agree with the silent
�onsent clause� Mrs> Wahlberg said that was correcto �
�7PON a voice vote, a11 voting aye, the motion carried u�animousl�.
MOTION 1�y Wahlberg, seconded b� Pe�erson, that the Planning
�ommission concur with the Environmental Quality Commission in their
�equest for a definition of "reasonabl� use" as applied on page 20,
IR�umber 1 under "b", and that the.request be made to the proper liody
Ifor this- definition. Upon a voice vote, a11 vo�ing aye, the motion
;carried unanimously.
Ni�-. Langenfeld said tliey hadn't niade any recommendations on
the discussion on the signse They were in disagreement with the
wor3s "may be". He asked Mr. Boardman what word could be used
for a subs�titute. Mr. Bergman said there was no motion made on
this question. Mr. Boardman said the discussion came up when ihey
were discussing signs along the critical area corridor. Mre Harris
said that the present sign ordinance in Fridley would make it difficult
to put up billboards close to the river banks. Mr. Boardman said
tha� he thought the provisions made in the Critical Areas Act mare
or less were controlled within each communities local or dinances.
Mr. Boardman said this will go to the City Council for their
review, and they will have to determine which direction they wanted
to take. After the Council's determination, the staff report will
be drawn up and sent in.
8. GENERA,L DISCUSSION
Chairman Harris said that the Planning Commission was going to
have to make a determination and set a policy on 40° lots. He said
some of the member Commissions were considering this, and they should
be made aware that the Appeals Commission had tabled•a request for
variances needed on a 40' lot, so this should be expedited. He said
from what he had been given to understand, there was no way we could
deny a building permit on a 40' lot, so we had better set some stan=
dards and criteria.
Mrs. Wahlberg said that this was the first request for building on
a 40' lot in Fridley. She said that the City Code states that the
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Planning Commisszon Meeting - March 3, 1976 Page 26 _
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minimum lot size was 50'.
Mr. Boardman said �his item was on the agenda for the next meetinc�
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of the member Commissions. ,
Mr. Peterson said there were 9 unnamed parcels of park property
in the City. He said there was supposed to be a memo prepared and
given to the Planning Commission asking for any suggestions they had
for names for these parcels, but evidently Lhe Planning Commission
hadn't received that as yet. He asked the Commission's to be thinking
about names and if they had any sugc�estions to make, they were welcome
to submit them to the Parks & Recreation Commission.
Chairman Harris sai-d that Mro F�eraman and himself had attended
a seminar on the Planning Commission in local government on the 25th
and 26th of February and had found it very beneficial. We will give
you a report on this seminar when the hour wasn't quite so lateo
ADJOURNMENT:
MOTION by Peterson, seconded by Wahlberg, that the meeting be
adjourned. Upon a voice voie, a11 voting aye, Chairman Harris declared
the Planning Commission meeting of March 3, 1976 adjourned at I2:47
A.M.
Respectfully subnitted,
I �-"i~ � /
c_ ���v- ��1�?i'.e-�-�-'
Dorothy E�renson, Secretary
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