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PL 06/09/1976 - 30445� � 1 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING CITY OF FNIDLEY JUNE 9, 1976 PAGE 1 CALL TO ORDER: Chairman Harris :called the meeting to order at 7:45 P.M. ROLL CAI,L: Members Present: Haxris, BErgman, Gabel Members Absent; Langenfeld, Peterson, Shea, Wahlberg Others Present: Jerrold Boardman, City Planner Due to lack of a quorum, this entire Plaraning Commission meetin� was held informally, as no mations could be made and no action could be taken. APPROVE PLANNING COMMISSIOid MINUTES: MAY 19, 1976 Chairperson Harris asked ii there was any discussion on the Planning Commission minutes, and I�ir. Boardman stated that every motion the Planning Commission ,s%� makes except when receiving material or opening or closing public heaxings, -- or sending something down to a member Commission,should be a recommendaiion for approval by Council because the Planning Commission is onl�r a recommending body and cannot make final decisions. �'1 � A4rs. Gabel said that on page 3� the last paragraph should have read Appeals Commission instead of Planning Commission. RECEIVE ENV'IRONME1vTAL QUALITY COMMISSION MINUTES: MAY I8, 1976 ' Chairperson Harris,�asked if there was any informal discussion on this� and Mrs. Gabel asked how Petition No. 8-1976 came about. Mr. Boardman answered that it was started by a group of people who live around Ruth Circle Park who �rere concerned about total road development in that area. A�r. Boardman poin�ted out that the E�vironmental Commission made some good points regarding the Youth Center. itECEIVE APPEALS COAiMISSION MTNUTES: MAY 25, 1976 Chairperson Harris asked if tnere was any discussion on the Appeals Commission minutes, and Mrs. Gabel stated that they did act on the Youth Center after Ided Storla made his presentation� and made a motion that they were in favor of it. _ ��---� Planning Commission Meeting - June q, 197b Page 2 RECEIVE PARKS & RECREATION MINUTE5: MAY 2lt, 1976 Chairperson Harris stated he thought there was a lot to be discussed, but without representation from the Paxks and Recreation Commission it would be difficult. Mrs. Gabel said that on page 11 of their minutes it said that the Community Schools had offered the Youth Center to come under their auspices' and it had been previously stated that �the school board was not interested in it. She asked far clarification on that mattero Mr. Boardman explained that the Community Schools are diiferent from the School Board, and they are the ones that made the offer. Mrs. Gabel asked what the Community Schools do, and Mr. Boardman answered that they have the Fine Arts Committee, theatricals, city band, etco He added that there were people from District 11t who were involved in Community Schools, bu� it is not necessarily tied to the School Board. Cha.irperson Harris noted that the Parks and Recreation Commission had iormed a Recreation Study Project Conunittee, and sa.id that whenever a project committee is formed it should be requested that the Chairperson of that Commission submit the names of the people on the project committee so it could go to the City Council. Mr. Boardman said they �aould then keep a rur�ning acount of project committees and what they axe active in, and the Commissions �aould be able to keeg an up-to-date account of those commi�tees and �rho was ineolved. � Mr� gergman stated that the Community Development Commission had two project co�nmittees now; a sign committee and another for bike and walkways. He said that bike and walkways was a controversial topic and there would be some discussion on it. He commented that the one on Mississippi Street looked -/`�� like a two-lane street instead of a bike lane. Mr. Boardm�n stated that the bike system was not officially opened yet, and that striping and signing were not completed yet. A4r. Boardman explaa.ned that the Coun�ty had. agreed to a bike system and they had received some Federal monies that they had to spend or lose, and that is what they did. He further explained that the monies set aside by the Federal Government were for edge striping. Mr. Bergman stated that a goodly share of those stripes that wer°e put down were in the �rrong place, and many were worn off already. Mr. Boardman said that was because they went through a winter and w5.r►ters were very tough on stripinge 1. PUBLIC HEARING: REQUEST FOR A SPECIAL USE PERMTT SP #76-�7 BY NANCY MELBIE: To allow a child caxe center for ten children, per Fridley City Code �ection 205.�51, 3, F, �� R-1 Zone (single family c�welling axeas), to be located on Lot 12� Block 39 Meado�moor Terrace Addition, the same being 131�6 Meadowmoor Drive N.EB Chairperson Harris informed Mrs. Melbie that there wasn't a quorum present so they could not hold a public hearing. She asked if this would be rescheduled for the next Planning Commission meeting� and he replied it �rould be. 2. PUBLIC HEARING• CONSIDERATION OF A PRELIMTNARY PLAT, P.S. ,�76-05, INNSBRUCK .,.��rT � �n�n nrv�rnPlt2��NT c`�RPOR.ATION: Bein IdORTH H�;YLA�l� �l'H11{1! A.ULl11V1Y D1 LdfiLilii.l� n• i.�•u� ----•---________ a replat of Lots 1 to inclusive, Blocks 21 through 2b, and also part o2 I,t�t 1: Block 28� Innsbruck North Totanhouses Third Addition� to allow changes in the size of garages, generally located on the West side of East Bavari�n Pass and South of Meisier Road N.E. � � � ,��--� Planning Commission Meetin, - June 99 1976 Pgge 3- Mr. James Lori�rn� representing Darrel A. r'arr Development Corporation, and Mr. T,orin Woods, of 5542 E. Bavarian Pass, Fridley, �rere present. Chairperson Harris explained that the Commission would be more than happy to discuss the petition i.nformally but could not take any action on it at this meeting as they could not hold a public hearing because of lack o.f a quorum. He p�;, stated that the public hearing items would be rescheduled for the next meeting. 1 Mr. London stated they were aking for two double garages and two single garages in each building instead of four single garages that they had now. He said the ground cover would be increased by 16' per building, and they felt the units would be more salable with that type of a double garage and that �ras their reason for it. He stated he had given this plan to the President of the Townhouse Association some time ago' and also to the Architectural Control Committee Chairman, Jerry Anderson, and hadn't received any negative responses from either one. Mr. Woods said that si.nce neither of those gentlemen could attend the meeting he had been invited to come in their place� and he felt that since the public hearing had to be postponed until a later date he �rould rather have one of them state their position since he had gotten this second-hand and didn�t have a chance to look over the plans himself. Mr. London asked what his feelings were on it, and Mre Woods stated that he lived adjacent to where the first set of' garage stalls would be built and his ourn personal opinion was that he was against it. He asked what was the present spaci.zag bet�aeen the garages that are presently constructed, and Mr. London said the spacing between the garages varied. He said it seemed there were a r�inimum of three parking spaces betvaeen any garage and sometimes four. t�r. WoGds said that if they went along with the plans it would eliminate at least one parking space for guests, and this was essentially the biggest n� complaint aga3.nst seeing the garage sizes increased. He continued. that many - -� times people who owned garages still lef't tneir cars out i'or convenience reasons. Mr. London asked how this af'Yected Nir. 4doods, ana 1yr. Woods replied that one ot the larger garages would be right besicie his dwelling. Mr. 1,,ondon saic! yes� tnere would be, but that garage is being added to away t'rom mr. 4Joods� block rather than towards his side. He statad it af'f'ected tne people in �ilocks �ive and six in that tiiere would be larger garages across the street. Chairperson Harris asked if these units had automatic garage door openers, and Mr. I,ondon replied that a few did� but the majority didn�t. Mr. Harris said he was wondering if they weren't made an option but were part of the deal if cars.would be put away more often, and thought this migrit be a partial solution, tatr. 1,ondon agreed that it might help. Mr. Woods said that even assvming the garage door openers were put on, the amount of parking spaces between the garages would indicate that people who have two cars �rho have single garages are still going to fill up those spaces making a parking problem for the guests of the units. Mr. London said they had '�X" amount of parking spaces whether the cars are in the garages or in the parking lot, and �rhat it does is reserve a parking area in a gaxage for someone who wants to buy it that way. 14Ir� Woads stated that he could understand why they �aanted to put i.n double garages, but as it existed now the amount oY ,� space that is there would make it rather inconvenient and difficul�. He added � that the space for parking was a� a premium now with single car garages, and ___ he could see it would still be at a premium as most people hane two cars and sometimes boats, recreational vehicles� and that sort of thing. ��� Planning Commission P�eetin� - June 9, 1976 Page lt I�r. Woods stated that if everybody used their gaxages as they ought to, there wouldn't be any problem. He added that if the double garages were allowed, it should be mandatory that those people use their garages or there would be no outside parking. He further added that he just had to rely on past history � with the ��ay the situation is now when people have parties attracting many guests and the resulting parking crunch. Chairperson Harris asked i#' he was saying that in any case there was not enough parking �,here, and Mr. Woods stated th�t if everyone parked in their garage there would be enough parking, but they don't. C:nairperson Haxris said he understood they had a very viable Townhouse Assoc- iation, and suggested that th�ou�h a little education and a publicity program t�ey could help t� remedy that situation.r'ix�. Woods said perhaps they could, but wnat he was sa,ying �ras that when he went home he would like to park relatively close to his o�an residence. �k^. Boardman asked how many ouiside parking stalls were provided per unit, and Mr. London replied there were c^.25 parking stalls for every unit. Mr. �oardman suggested designating an outside sta11 for every unit, but Mr. Y�oods said ne didn�t think that would work very well. He cited the example that if someone was having guests over and you came back to find your designated space parked in, what could you do? He stated it would be a very difficult thing to manage. Mr. Bergman asked if they had thought of any way to replace those twelve lost outside spaces, and Mr. London replisd they hadn't. He explained it u*as suggested fairly recently that more garage space be provided� and he said he thought that the double garages would sell. In fact, he said, many peaple asked if two-car garages were available, and at the present time they are not �� Mr. I,ondon explained he had the surveyor take a look at it and asked what ! could be done without ruining the area, and this is what he came up with. He said at least ttao spaces were left between each garage. Chairperson Harris said that perhaps they could think about it for awhile, and at the next Planning Commission meeting some concrete suggestions and recommendations could be made. Rr�-EVALUATION OF STREET LAYOUT NF,AR NORTH PARK (P�;TITION 8-i97b) Mr. Bergman stated he thought this was very fully covered in the minutes of the Encironmental and Community Development Commissions meetings. He said the two Co:nmissions �rere in full agreement that they ought not lose existing right-of-ways. Mrs. Gabel said that from reading those minutes there wasn't anything in the fliture about a road, so she couldn°t fully understand why the people petitioned. Mr. Boardman explained the people where trying to avoid a situation that could possibly happen in the future. Chairperson Harris said that as far as railroad crossings go, he was not in favor oY one on 83rd, but felt there should be one on 79th, and felt the one on 77th should be eliminated. Mr. Boardman said there was a cul-de-sac at 79th, but was not sure what �rould happen i;here. He said he would just as �' soon see 77�h eliminated and no crossing to East River Road. Mr. Iiarris said � . � �� � Plannin Commission MeetinP - June 9, 1976 Page 5 he would agree but he had some neighbors with different views� but he didn't lrnow what their reasoning was off-hand. � Mr. Boardman said that he would like to see industrial property completely cut off from East River Road. As far as 83rd goes, he stated, he didn't anticipate ever seeing a railroad crossing there. He said there �rere major transportation routes that serviced that area (132� University and Osborne) and he didn't see any need for any more service. Chairperson Harris said there was some pressure from people in the area that they need another cro ssing, and Mr. Boardman said he would have to hear their reasoning on that. He stated it was a very well-serviced area and there would be a signal at 81st. STHEET tiJIDTH STANDARDS Mr. Bergman stated that for planning purposes it seemed clear to him that they shoulc� talk in terms of right-of-ways of 66, 60 and 50 feet, and those figures ought to be applied. Mrs. Gabel said that street widths seemed to be a rather arbitrary thing, and developers were told different things. She felt the criteria should be the same. Mr. Boardman explained there �aere standaxds that axe set up, but the City Council chooses to change those standards. Mr. Bergman asked how many feet per traffic lane built up to a 36� widti-i, and A4r. Boardman answered there were two 10' driving lanes and two 8' parking Ianes. Mr. Bergman said that is what was backed dawn to when a better situation ^ wasn't available, and Mr. Boardman said if they couldn't get what should be �` there they could drop down to certain widths, such as 21�� with no parking lanes. Chairperson Harris said the thing he objected to was �he way people were assessed for their streets� and stated he didn't feel it was fair. Mr. Baardman stated that a standard should be set up that 31' streets should be posted "No Parking" on one side. Chairperson Haxris said that was correct, and added that if the streets were running straight it was a different ball gafne. He said the long streets that the houses face on should be 3b' streets � and the cross streets should be 31� streets, and if everything was running in nice little squares that would be fine� but curved streets were different. He stated that unless there were long curves people didn't park right next to the curve� so curved streets should be wider than straight streets. Nirs. Gabel said she agreed, but that seemed like an excuse to make the streets narrower. Mr. Bergman said that another philosophy was that on streets �ahich the houses face you want to discourage traffic and encourage it on the cross streets to make them the collector streets. He said they have some in Columbia Heights at the request of the citizens to slow down the cars. Chairperson Harris said•it seemed ridiculous to go through the acrobatics of providing off-street parking and then put i.n 36' streets. Mr. Boardman said that �ras a point, and wandered why a 50' street �aas needed in an industrial �� area where off-street parking has to be provided. Mr. Bergman said that was � a relief factor� because when industry makes its plans it doesn't always stay -� within the proposed head count and they can run out of parking space. He said they have had this problem at Univac. Planning Comrnission Meetin� - June 9, 197b Page 6 Mr. �ergman said that another element to this was the safety factor; kids riding bikes, youngsters walking around parked cars, etc. Mr. Harris said he would much rather see a 2�' street with sidewalks than a 36' street. He asked why 28' or 2�' streets worked in Innsbruck and not elsewhere, and Mr. Boardman said they probably could. Mr. Harris said�he would much rather see � them go to a 28� concrete street than a 36� asphalt street because of mainten- ance problems� Mr. Boardman said another thing they might want to consider with regard to street uridth was the housing plan. He said that the larger the street the more assessment there was per structure, and if people's ability to pay according to income level was considered, perhaps those streets should 'ae dropped back in low and moderate i.ncome level areas so they cauld more easily afford the street system. Nlr. Boardman stated that in a residential area provisions had to be made for some form of parking on the street, and suggested cu.t-ins. Mr. Bergman said that Stinson Boulevard had done that with the cut-ins, and Mr. 3oardman said the reason they did that �aas because it was also their bike�aay systeri which they have separated from the road. He added that it was very attractive and it would be nice to see that in some residential areas to see if it would work. Mr. Bergman asked what someone would guess on the curb to curb widths and paxking cut-out widths on Stinson, and Mr. Boardman said it was probably a 2!�' road driving surface with 8' cut--outse Chairperson Harris said that if we had narrower streets and are encouraging off-street parking, we axe setting a double standard. Mr. Bergmaia stated that the street parking was necessary for guests for parties, etc.' and Mr. Haxris said that not every house in the block was going to have a party on � the same night. He said that Yahat �as happening now witih 36' streets �as instead of the garage being used for its intended purpose� it is beirig used F for boats9 body shops� etc., and the cars end up on the street. He said perhaps what they should be doing is recommending larger accessory buildings. Mr. Boardman said that as far as street widths go� most streets in ihe cit;� are in, curbed and guttered, and he didn't see where a lot of conversation �ras going to make the streets narrower. He said he felt discussion on standards was a little late. Mr. Bergman said he supposed their discussion on this would carry over until the next meeting, but he was wondering what their conclusion ought to be on their concern about street widths; merely an off-hand.suggestion� a resolution or a policy statement. Chairperson Harris said he thought a policy statement. He said he thought the city should have a pnlicy and should follow it. CONTINUED : RECONII�ENDATlONS ON HUMAN DEVELOPMEIVT GOALS AivD OBJ�;CTIVES 1�ir..Boardman said he had �anted to talk about D-100 which concerned Parks and Recreation, but didn�t think the Commission would want to discuss it at this meeting since there wasn't a representative fram the Parks and Recrea- tion Commission present. Chairperson Harris agreed, and sa�d he did have some questions for the Parks and Recreation Commission. He referred to the recreation activities expenditu`�� information which h�.d been handed out at the last meeting� and said that in �, �� Planning Commission Meeting - June 9, 1976 Page 7 some of those areas there was more i.n administrative costs and for officials than was spent on the rest of the whole program� and he w�uld like to ]rnow how they got there. � Mr. Boardman said that the program didn't go towards individual unorganized activities, and rir. Bergman said something should be provided for youngsters who aaeren't good in team sports. Mrs. Gabel saici she thought recreation should encompass more than just sportse Chairperson Harris.said he understood the problem because there U�as a lot of pressure in Fridley for hockey, softball� @�iCey but no one exerted pressure for unorganized activities so they didn't happen. Mrs. Gabel said that the Parks and Recreatian Commission statEd the,y don't have enough money to appropriate in their budget for a Youth Center, but in the minutes of the last meeting they offered $900 that wasn't even asked for towards the building of a shed to store hockey and softball equipment. She said it made her feel the city is too sports oriented' and something should be done. Chairperson Harris said he felt Fridley could use a good municipal swimming area. He said that Richfield had taken their liquar iund and put it into a capital improvements fuald and built municipal pools� the city hall, a skatin� areaa� warming houses� tennis courts and a nature center, and maintain them out of the liquor fund. He said that part of Fridley�s liquor fund went to build a very expensive liquor store, ��hich has no design and no customers, l�irrs. Gabel suggested better-designed buildings should be encouraged and pushed for, and Mr. Haxris said they were actually discouraged because the taxing '� structure discouraged good design. rlr. Boardman pointed out that the taxing -, � structure taas the same i.n Fridley as in New Brightan and other communities which had well-designed buildings. .'"", � ADJOURNMENT Chairperson Harris informally adjourned the meeting at I0:22 p.m. Respectfully submitted' � /n � ,�r� . _�a ��.Y��'�� �1 Sherri 0'Donnell Secretary �� �