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PL 04/11/1979 - 30508., �� � CITY OF F'RIDLEY SPECIAZ NI�TING - PLAIVNING COMMISSION - APRIL 11� 1979 CALL TO OR�1�R : Chaiz�rnan Harris ca17.�d the April 11, 19799 speci�l ��e�in� oP the P�.�nnin� Cor�isaian to order at 7s30 P.M. ROLL CA7�Ls T�mbers Present: P�. Haa°�'is� N1r. Oquia�, Ms. Gab�l Meffibers Absent: A�°. I�ngenield9 Ms. Suh�bie�r' N1s. S�h�b�l, Mx. �xeuenfe7,s Othex°a F'res�nt: Nr. Saunders (n�wl� appoin�ed �embea� of �iiaman Resources Comrn.�.ssion) Ms. 1N�rtin (newly ap�oin•tecl an��nber �f Hwnan Resources Cornr.,,iesi.o�a) NL�. Bo�,rdman� City Planraer NiY°. Leek, Associate Planner • 1. CONlP3�HENS�VE D�L4PMENT PLP.1Vt N�. B��rd�n st�ted th�t th�y have l�cl ��v��al zn�bex° coa�ii.ssion me�tings inclu�.irig Parls� �nd. Recre�tion, C��nmuni-ty Develop��n�9 aad Appeals. lhey were tryir�� �o detrelop ta i,ime Pr�me �nd. �d pl�,n.ne�. an � public he��°ixig b��ore ihc: PZanYtin� Cos�i�sias n�x� �reek, bu-t �rould proY��bly he�ld off on �t�� ur�i:31 �he firs�t �'1a�ni�ag Coa�mi �sion m��ting in N`�,y. He wrould lilce th� Pl�ar�ni� Co�;-i ssi�i�a �o revie*� �his �imult���eous2y trith the oth�r coramissions so tk�f. when t�e T'lr�n�+ing Co�ission receiv�d co��ni�s r°roa� i;h� oth�a^ cotn�nissions9 th��r wouid r,�v� a�eel �'or wha'c th�y �r�r� ta`lkizz� �bQUt. He na�ed �they had alre�dy received a response froffi 'th� Pa�°�s �r:c: R�cr�a�ti�n Ca�ission and als� a 1ef�icer from Peter T�°�ueniel:s.. T%e Hum�n Resources Co�missian d�cicd�d �to review the docume�t indivic3.ua,lly and �o submit their cor��n�s individurzlly9 �a�her �than as � g�oup. The Enviorr�ental Quali�y Comffiission Y�a� rnot y�� reviewe� the doct�.enty bu� eaould be discussin� it n�xt w��k. Car�anunity Devel.opffi�nt; �nd A�pe�1� would be Izolc�ing mar� �eting� to discues it. Tne p�i�na�y poini, brougnf; �o �the o-�her commissions was th�-� the clocu��n.t �y look thick, but a�jority of the documera� wes a�u�°vey ar�d ranr�lysis o£ ea�isting conditions. They wex°e prina�cily irate�es�ed in the direction o� the book rt�ther tiian n�cessa�rily the cox�tent oi the su:rvey and analysis. They were loolcin� for comments on �ihe policy and systiem plt�n as � directior� iar �;he Ci�ty. p�r. Bo�rdrnan sfiated th�� at this mee�ing, he woul� like to go �hxouv�h som� o� the �ystem plans �nd e:�cpZain same oi the m��ping, �.ait�in e�ch o� th� sys�em ar�as. Also' i� th� Cott�raission wishedy they could r�view the co�ments of the Parks �nd Recr�ation Camr�ission. ' 2fir. Harris st;a�ed he had � fe�r comments befor� �they s�;ar�ea. He s��-ted th�v re��rr�iing the introduction, he wnderstood �he direc�ion of it, but fel� parts of it sl�ould be rewrit�ten. He �aas concerned th..�t par�s o�' it stepped an the toes of administr�tions �nd �;hr��C was not �heir intent. He �greed wi�h �ost but felt �the �aordin� cauld be better. iie asked Iv3m. Bo�rdmaa if they this discusaion wi�h go�ls and objectives. pr�vious oi the s��tements should start `� Y�Sr. Boardma,n s�asted that w�es correct but there w�re same recoa�ended ch�nges �'rom � the a�ember co�imissions he would lik� to discuss firs�t. O�e of them concerned the land are�a Right no�a they have a policy statement but do not have any system plans draw� up. Initially, �they felt the system plan would be �he 1g90 land use m�p but after eo�n� cliscussion ��ad additiona�, review, th�y f�lt th�t parts oP it could no� be cav�red in map form and wou.ld need som� document�tion so �hey �re preseutly working on c� system pl�n �or �he land use sec�tion. SPECIAL N�iING - PLANNING COMMISSION, APRIL ].l, �g79 PAGE 2 � I�r. Harris stated ;�hat in the Inventory they were usin� som� percenta�es, e,nd he � did not think these fi�ur�s �aere giviu� a�rue picture of what really existsy especi�lly in re�arda to co�ercial �nd industrial land, and aleo public land. ' H� had ques�ioned how much oi° tbe commercial and industrial land was railroad property. He was rei'errin� to pa�e 9 of' the docu�ent. Also, he wss concerned about how much of that ].and wa� controlled by other �overnmen��l b�.ies� such as the R�inne�polis Water Works �nd FMC. He asked if �hese lands were counted in with the industrial and ca�nnercial fi�ures in the document. Mr. Boardman st�ted that the FMC w��s counted in with industrial because it is industri�l even thou�h �Chere are governmen� eontracts there �nd �they c�sn°$ collect �taxes on s�e of the buil.din�s ther�. Mr. Harris s�ated that he felic that should be spelled out plainly in the Inventori�s. Mr. Board�an sta�ed �thfat the Water Works �nd the Waste Control were public lands. Mr. Harris asked how much �ras controlled by �the railroad. He felt this should be specifically spelled out because it wou�d then �ive � clearer pic�ture of how much land is developable lamd. Mr. Bomrdrn�n atated tha,t �he railro�d land tha� h�s �rackage on i� is classified �� dev�so�ed. industri�l propelcty and the railro�d proper-cy without trsckage is classified as vacant ir�dus�rial p�°operiy. For ex�aacp].e� �he Gre��t 1Vor-chern Rail� ro�d property is considered open for develop�en�. It is undeveloped, industrial property. � A�. Harris stated that he felt the g�rcen�ages indic�ted on pa�e g couia change because of� that and �elt the statement "i�a proportion �o the �ot�,l land use� the Gity o� Fridley has s�bout 50� �ore i�dustri�,]. l�nd than the Metro Area Avera�e" could be misleadin� because of this particul.ar situation. Mr. Boardman stated that he did not feel it was misleading az�ci felt 3t was pretty clear cuic. 52� is the undeveloped industrial property in the City. Tir. Asrris etated he could not believe it was �h�t high. Mr. Boardman s�ated that �e have a lot oF acres , 80 acxes of Sears propericy unoccupied, Carter�Days industri�l property� Great 1Vorthern Industrial Park still has a].�rge tract open, Onan�s has some open �d in the Onaway, are� there is some open. Al1 of that is zoned indus�rial. Ms. Gabel as�ed what the average breakdo�wn was for co�unities in terms of industrial and ceJmmercis,l. Mr. B�rdman stated that Nlinneapolis is �eners�ll.y higher in co�ercial�induetxial thaa� most of the otber cammuni�ies and Fridleyr is higher than Minneapol.is in commercial and industrial. Ms. Gabel asked what the ratio was. Mr. Boardman stated that the ratio is about 12i Less than �'° ratio for industrial zoned �' � is general]y the property and we have about 22°�. �:- _ � � r� � SPECl//��LL MEETING - PLl�NNING COP/lNIISSIOPI, APRIL 11.s 1979 PAGE 3 Mr. I�ar�°fa aske� if �hey didn't have �o�ne Epecial cases in �here. He referred to the Inven�Lory of' Public Lands anrl asked ho�r much oi th� ].and w�,s con�rolled by the City, the State and •the County, and slso �ihe Federal Governmettt. Mr. Board.man st�ted tha,� PubZic Lancl included �he road system9 the park systems, the City Hall, the Wa�er Wor�:s, �11 of the public].y zoned property. Mr. Harris stated h� unde�°s�ood �izat, bu� �Ghere was considerable �creage in the Water Work� area and also in the Se�rer Dis�Cricts 1.ar�d and the Pu��ing Station� �rith- in the bourids oi �he Ci�y that rerally isn't our land. It belongs to so�eone e�ae, like the Ci�y of Minneapolis. N�. Bo�rd�n stated th�t in general tk�ey fel� th�t 3� is �bout average for pub].ic ownership. We faZZ a lit�Lle bit 1aw in co�mnercia� and re�idem�cial in wlaa�C is �en�erally classified as t°r�mrmal" . They s�ke up for it in industrial. Mr. Harris sta'�ed '�h�t thezl ImBybe iche fi�ures �aere a�ccurate. He fel-t this �ras important if' �rhat com�s ou'c of this ia a p�ot�os�l do�m the ].ine f or rezoning. Mr. Bo�x°dn�n sta'�ed thm� he did no� �think they were looking a'� rezoning per se� they were ].00king a't areas th�,t have the po�ceutial f�r mixed us�g�. I�r. Ha,rris stated that they were sr�,ying w� have �o put; in another 2300 uni�ts. � Mr. Board��n s-�ated �chat they we�e saying tl�ey should be proeiding a�nother 2300 unii;s of housing -Lo meet aux° s'candarc?s or �o m�et th� needs oi the �rotring populaiion in the T�ain Cit�y Area ar�c3 �or us co taY.e � sh�re o� tha�t lo�d. Mr. H�rris st�,ted it was important �o have a clear picture in our Inver�-tories because obvious�.y �ae wi11. h�vE to do sometbing ��rith ou:r zones or m�ke som� �pect�l provisions. Without a cle�r pictuy°e it would be difficul� t�o �ake a good juc?gemen�. Mr. Bo�xe�n s�tated that h� thou�ht they l�,d a pre��ty �ood picture. Ms. G�bel stated �hey would have to rezone to �et 2300 mo�e un.its. Mr. Bo�rdm�n stated they weren8-t looking at rezoning per se, they had other tools for pxoviding housing uni�3. There wer�e ��°o�rams th� City could get involv�d in such as tax increment progr�,ms, sponsorship of lo�r int�rest mortgages or tex e�empt mort��ge loans �hich encoux�ge the developmen�t or re�leveI�opmen-� of housing pro�rams. Mr. Oquis� stated tb.ey s�till haci to h�ve somepl.�ce to put those houses. Ntr. Boardm�n stated �th�i; by malting low intere��t lo�ns or �nortga�e ].oans and these types of ichings �►vs�ilable �o �p�rt�ent developers or housing developers, even �t th� industri�l cost of praper�y, they would be putting it more in�o the realm of acquisition. There are a lot oP tools the Gity eould use to deve].op increased density �ri�hin areas. One place would be the Center City area. They are looking ,-1 at the improvement of th� Center Ciicy area bu� feel ich�at in order to improve th�t �rea they will have to �e:� dettsi�ty within tha'� are�. So they have to look at the '` possibi�.i�y of condoninaium type llouses or coffibinations o� of�ices end houein� witl�- in the Center City. SPECIAL MEETING � PLANNIIVG CONII�lISSION' APRIL 11� 19?9 -- -" PAGE � 0 Mr. Qquist a�ked where they would pu�c those in the Center City. � Mr. Boardm�n s��ted they had �,boui; 25 to 30 acres of open land or land tY�at could be raaeie available. He staiced �h�re was property behind Rice Plaza between the apartments anci across �the street from HoZly Center. Thex� w$s also l�nd ne�r the Church 's bal]. di�mond that could become �'vail�ble. Also� there is land o�med by Saliterman. . I� �s drainage problems� but maybe a solution could be iound. Mr. Oquist aske3 if he was referring to the n�arshy land n�e�r S�ndees. P�fr. Bo�rdm�n stated that was correct� and �there was another tract o�' land near Sear's Ou�l�t and the Shorewoai' abou� 30 �crea. We could put a lot o� units in there. Mr. Leek stated that yai�h mediiva density, they could be talking about as ��r as 210 uni�CS on th��C amount of land. With higher density they could be looking a'� twice that' or with a cambinatian� �aybe three �Ci�s the ciensity. Mr. Harris stated th�t he suspected. they s�ight get a eo�nbination oi uses on that land. Mr. Bo�rd.�n s�ta'�ed they had' a� one tiffie' looked a't tY�e �rea near the Nature Center by Northtosan. That could be a go� Zoca�ion for a co�mbination of mixed housir� and co�aercial. offices. Mr. H�irris mentioned the area bel,ow 69�, ne�r the river. Mr. Leek st�,ted that they should move on ir��o the Goals and Ob�ec�ives. H� stated th��t in talking �ri�h the member com�aissions so iax°e he tried. to �ns�rer their qu.esicions about c�nsis��ncy be�ween �o�ls and objectives and �he policy sections �nd su�ested they start a� �he beginnin� wi.�h the I,and Use Pattex�n Section on pm�e 6. The Policy S�ction is on pa�e 11.. Mx�. He�rris st�ted th�t in looking at the first goaly V1009 on pa�ge 6' it left him a little cold. Mr. Boardm�n s�ated they toolc the �oeals and objectives provided by the City Council a,nd the PZ�nning Co�nission. ��'i Mr. Leek stated th�t in looking at �he goals �nd obj�etives, when they were dr�fting the document' it seemed a li�t�l.e tenuous. When �hey talk sbout th� economic well bein� of �the Ci�ty, they are in �ac� ta2kin� about more tlzan just the aa�oun� of r�ceipts �th�� pass thx°ou�h a co�erci�]. establishment and the amount of �t�x generated' �but -elso th� stande;rd o:f ].iving of individu�l residents and a nwmber of other thirags. N1r. Boardman stated �hey h�d a little troubl.e wi�h goals and objectives �nd they found a lot of repetition in the objec�ives �nd where they found repetition� they , tried �to elimin�te those objectives. They basic�l],y kept al.l of the goals the same. Mr. Harris s�tated tha� on page 6 he felt �hey ahould eay more� but was not sure �',, just what. � � �� ' SPFCTAL MEETING - PLANNING COMMISSION, APRIL 11� �979 PAGE 5 Ms. G�bel asked if �hey w�re �oing to etart chxinging �oals and ob�ectives. Nbr. �oardman stated that they could eaanment ors th� �e�le and objective�� but the whole document �as based on the assu�ption that the �oal8 and obj�ctives were �iven as � direction. Mr. iiarris su���sted they move onto page 11. Ms. Gabel referred to �he fix�st sentence under V120 �2.on page 11. She had a quesiion about that because it seems that our shopping areas are havin� problems naw and wondered what direction they had in mind fox° that. , N[r. Boardman staiced �hat in lookin� a�t our proposed land use' we look at the area th.�t we have already for vi�ble key co�erci�l raodes such as Ho7.].y Ce�ater� the Shorewood are�,' the co�ercial area nea� Target� and �he Holiday Cent�r area. In these areas they �re opera�Cin� and making money anrl they are our key coasnex°ci�l. n�es �or resident services. On top of �hat they have local comm�rci�l nodes such as the 7m11's and Quik S�ox��s �rhich provide for a very localized service are�. These are the types oP things they are referring to under V�20 #2. As ener�y goes up and it costs more to ge�C to shoppin� centers, the�°e are service �r�a within iche City �tYiat pPOViae �, �'unc-tion. We have to look �,t making those service are�s more viable as far a�s proeiding thoses services to ihe residents. Mr. Leek s�a'ted that in the fu�uxe� �the rel��ive cos�t in �ez�r►s of energy, �time and i� �noney ]for �'�miZies9 •-no�t only in Fridley, but in most o�her co�nmunites �ooy to �travel to large region..�l cen�ers to perform aL1. of the kinds of shoppin� and se�race func� tions they need in the course of e vreek or a mon�h, wil.� become prohibi-�ive a�i. it woul.d se�m to be necessary �nd �aorth�rhile to t3ry a�nd naaint�in �hose �reas �tha't pro- vide grocery shoppir� kinds of functio�s� dry clemnin� ftanctions' e-�c.� to service the neighborhoods in Frid�ey. Mr. Oquist sicr��ted tha� those s�L7. shopping areas al.so have to be competi�ive or people wi7.1. drive to a l�rger center. He stated �that they hsve to be careful �ith thos� kind of things� because if �chey s�ar-� p].anni� �hose areas and �hen they boarci the�n up� �rha�t are we going to cio wi�th those buildings? What wil.l happen -to the 7-11 on Old Central and Mis�issippi? Mr. Leek stated that in Fridley, �hey �rere not tallting about promotin� addition�l are�s where construc�ion wou].d hsve �o t�ke place. As Ms. Gabel stated� they would try to keep viable the areas we have. A�r. Og,uist st�ted that th� 7-11 on Old Central �aas a mistake bec�use there wae a Counicry Boy a block �way. It was a mistake to all.v�r that to happen9 because one of the t�ao would not make it. That area cannot support two sYnall stores. We have to w��ch that kind of d�velopment. Mr. Harris re�Perred to the second sentence in V120 #1 which reads as �ollows: "In the future, rising buildin� and energy costs wi11 take the single@family house out of the financial. reach o� mos� families." He felt that statement was true� bu� ', questioncd the follovain� sentence "Th�t reality coupled with the stil:l-incre�sing � demand for housing in the City will demand that the City make eeery eifort to encourage the construction of alternative and s�fordable homes." SPECIAL MEETING - PLi4NNING CON�+ffSSION� APRIL 11� 1979 PAGE 6 0 Mr. Harr3.s asked if thi� meant they were �oing to try to promot� doubles or � multiples. What direction will they t�ke? 1�. Eoardman s�ated. there were a lot of directions they woul.d ha�ve to look �t. In the S�rstem Pl�n �hey will have to deal with a 1ot of these issues. Some o� the thin�s �chey �aoul.d look at wer� �partments turni� into condamini�ns. They have had severel requests for this, and this is one o� the alternatives for differen� types of home ow�ership. The problem with this is th�:y will be losing some of the rental ma�ket so they will have ta s�tart looking �t other provisions they can have and other things the City c�n do. We have tasc exeffipt moa�tgages that is a potential f�r home ownership anfl also law interest 1Q�ns. Mr. Harris stated that he had questioned the woxd "construction". As fa�r as he could see� they were talking abou� 2300 units of TPn@W COriStrliCti011n. He felt our housir� stock was 'the main concern here. Mr. Boardrnan st�ted th�t there were more and u�ore pro�r�ms becomin.g available thxou�h the Federal Government on diiferent hous�.ng programs. There were rehabili- tation programs �l�t m�ke existing structuy°e� that are presently unlivable more in line �aith livable standards and yet still provide a lo�� or m�lera'�e income housir�g uni�t. There are a].ot of new construction techniques becomin.g avai].able. The Minnesota Housing Finance A�ency heas law interest loan.s for new constructian oi a single f�mily house. Another thing wovld be �;ax_ exerapt martgages. That is also on new construction.as we11 as existing housing i'or low interes�C mor�cgsge lo�ans. We will h�ve to take a look at these types of things. We will also h�ve to encoura�e things lilce con3ominiu�as ana those types of housing units for energy ei�'iciency. ^ T}ae single i€�mi.ly home is probably the least efficient type of living unit you can h�ve becaus� of the was�te of energy. They wi1.1 �lso he�ve to look at programs th�t will make those houses energy ef�'icient. Ms. Gabel s�ated. that those kinds oi specifics belong und�r housin�. Here we are ta].l�in�g about land use and soane�ahex�e in the policy glan we should be saying that we are goin� to provide �he land to do �his. Mr. Harris sta�ted that in the land use section� �hey should also be t�lking abou�t density� which we don't allude to at all. Mr. Boardma,n stated th�t was a good paint �nd noted that they did g�t into that quite heavil,y in the housing secicion. He sta�ed that in the land use sec�ion� they should be looking not only at the existing l�nd use we have for housing, but aZso the density� as Mr. Harris pointed out. Mr. Ha,rris stated that in discussin� this a few months ago, they had talked about looking a't9 in specific areas, densa.ty instead of lot size. Mr. Boardman sta'ted that was a key also to a policy issue we had for convertin� rental to Con�.ominiums. Tt doesn't change density any, so why not do it. What is the problem we mave in doin� that on �xisting structures2 �",, SPECIAL MEETING - PLANIVING COA�QSSION, APRIL 11, �979 �_ `_PAGE 7 �� Mr. Harris st�ted that if we �et into rezoning or sp�cial zoning� and apparently we will have �o do some�hing to get 2300 more units in, maybe our appr�ch to th�t und�r the Land Use Sec�Lion� should be no� lot sizes but ciensi�ty. And maybe we should say somethin� like that in here. l�r. Boardm�n atated. that was a good poir�t and also what he had mention�d about under "Lmnd Use" they should be t�lking about land avail�bility for housin� as opposed to al�ernative forms of housin�. A�1r. Og,uist stated they could maybe drap tbat first policy. N6c. Board�n stated they could but in it�s pl�ce they would put ttencourage land availability for �lternative forms of housing to meet the dem�nd or need for housin� by 1990, te 1�. Oquist �sked if �3 didn�t cover that. � � . Mr. Harris stated tY�at he ��lt i�t just didn°� say that. He fe7.% that in going over this thing� i�G didn� t se�an tl�t they wer� saying wh�� they were 'cx�rin� to do. Ms. Gabel stated �hat she assumed the figure oi' 2300 more units came from Metro Council� but have they decieied that this is what we want �CO do' �nd if �re have' we should address the question. We have not ec�ne out and said "we need �to provide 2300 mor� unitsS4 . � Mr. ?�ek s�tated that in th� Housing Sec'cio�a w�� heve s�id there is an expectecl ueed for 2300 �ddi�tional units and �h�t is a cal.culation based on some vexy a�zdimenta�ry s�atis�ics. Th2 trend in decline of housin� size as t'igured through 1990 and pro- �ec�ted papula�ion increases. Both of those sets of inforanation come t�+ us fr�n Me�ro Council, but they �re by no means dietates £rar� Me�ro Council. What are dic�tates' in a fox�a' are the housing �11oc�tzon pl�n fi�ures which �are �lso �n�ioned in the Housing Pl� in �ahich we s�ca�e 94W� adopt Frid].ey� s full share gor�l" . He beli�eed th�t �aas something like 18�2, So the plan do�s say °th�t �Che Ci�y of Fridley wil�. do wh�� it can fi,o ensure �tha.t this many nevr units are pra�vided in the co�mmunity. Ms . Gabe], stated �cha� the�a, in the Land Use Section9 we should st�ste tl�at we wil� u�ke land av�ilable for that. Mr. Harris sicated th�t was V�Y�yy he was conc�rned �bout the fi�ur�s in �the I�nd Inven�ory. I� we �re �oing to m�ke the l�nd available, we will have to �et it from some place. � Mr. Ba�z°danan stast�d that in Zooking �,�t wY�at they had just discussed� they were not l.00king �t the elianin�tion oi that �uch indus�ri�l property. What they were looking at was providin� a mixture in some areas and a more concentr��ted, laok a� the densi�ty of development, not just single iamily Uut the density of all types of development in certain areas in order to accomplish the �osl. We m�y keep �that i�dustrial property to �ive us a good tax base to balance off the a3ditions�l population we mt�y get. But wha� we should look at is increased density in certain areas. � '� Si'ECIAL MEETSNG - PLANNING COP�LSSION Ak�RTL 11, 1979 PAGE 8 Mr. Harris s��,ted that if th�y used �t�at th�y bave done so Par as a yard sticic9 r'"� and a�ood n±e2�surement �aould b� 'che Geor�etcnrra apartffien'cs where the�e �re �tbou� 500 apartments' they used a considerable cc�,mmount o� land. if th�y s,re goin� to use iour ti�es that much to accompZish 2300 uni�s' they will hav@ to s�t�rt carving up soffiethin� to �et there. Nfr. Boardman stated they would have to chan�� th�ir ideess about �the types o£ s�rucicures. The typea of structures �resently �oing in Por apartmen�s� are very wasteiul on the la,nd �rimarily b�cause they don't �rant to go ar�y higher because �hey need a diifesent type o� structure �o go �ver three s'cories. So an apartment complex is � kind of s�rawling type of coarmlex to accomplish �Che sa�ae thing �they could in a fi�re story building. Mr. H�rris stated. th�t would invelve density again. Zt seem�d tY�t the Georgetown Apar�meni:s had about all i;he density th�y cou].d g�t. Mr. Board�,an �greed and sta�ed �here wovld have t� be sa�e chan�es in oux thoughts and in our zoning ordinances to alla�r hig2�er densities in certain areas. Mr. Oquist �sked why they would wan� to do tha�? He stated tha� we was playing devilt s advoer��ce and asked why 'chey wan'ced i;o paek zn ev�rything we ean into the community. Inst�ad of putting in 500 �rhy no'c 200? Why do we feel �;his need to fill it up? Mr. Leek s��ted tha'� �t �his point, th�y t�er� jwx►pi.x�� th� gun on iche decisioas that wovld be an�de by the City providin� �k�a-t hind of' housing. At -�his point in � �im@9 they were not loo�ing a� speci�'ic si��s9 r�nd he d.id not think they could� nor coulei they 100� a� speci�'ic praposals. So �h�y di� not know whether they were taiking abau� pmcking �hem in' so 'co s�eak. Nir. Oquist stated they were tal.�in� abou� that ixi a way because �they ��ere talkin� about bringing in 2300 more ia�nilies and ma�in� livi�g s�iace av�ilable for tha� rnmr�y. They shauld step bacic and as� if tl��Qs wk�,t t�aey real�.y want �o do. Nir°. Boardmaffi s�tatea thes°e wer� some vex•y basic ques'tions underlying tha�C. First of a119 the Americ�� p�ople have �er�erally been a v�ry w�stefu7. people and h� �Chough�t our ideas $nd concep�s as to iche use o�' avail.a'b�li�y of x�sources is going -Lo h�ve ch�nge. As far as taaces, right raow a single g2ami]y �ype oi devel.opment is probably ich� l�as�C dens� type of development and i�QS get�ti�g less dense �s the family sizes continue to go do�rn. So the amount of resources we use per household is increasing when w� look a� density. There is more and a�ore dem�.nd fbr addi�ion�l housing and �hat housing h�s �o go so�eplace. And th�t is th� problem in urban communiiies. The main conca�pt is to ge�t people into a more concen�ra�ed area �d provide � lodc of parks and open spaces t•rithin easy access and also se�°vice areas �rithin e�sy access. They eould then provide ffiore facilities ior ].ess resowcee cost. A�r. Oquist sicated they had to be careful not to pac�s �Chem in too much. He could underst�nd not promoting sin�le family dwellin.�s bec�use of the energy problems and other things but they should be c�reful about gettin� into Zarge apartment complexes and tha�t kind of thing just to provide so m�r�y dwellings for an assumed m�rket. � .�.:.z � SPECIAL MEETING - PI,ANN:CNC COMMISSTON, APRIL 11� �979 pA� 9 � ��"!, Mr. Boapdm�n �tated they were not necessarily talkix�g abou� lar�e a�paricment cor�. � plexee or ren�er occupied complexes. The ideas of ownership �are chPwging. A lot oP people are deciding �ihey don't �rant single family ownership and went condaminium type ownership. In �he rental units they are constan�ly at.�3°� or 9� occupi�ci. It is very difficult to find adequ�,te housing in the metrapolitan area,. Ener�,}r costs axe increasing. I�r. Oquis� st�ted that hia point was that we la�ve '�o really know wha� we are doing here. We don't �r�nt �to be puttin� in density for the sake of density or because Me:tro Council says we should have so many heads per acre. We }�ve the opportunity to do a little bit of plannin� on the land �that is left and we shauldn't go all out on a densi�cy kind o�' thin�. Ms. Gabel aslsed what wouI.d happexi if we didn't provide �he nuanber o� units that Me�ro CounciZ asked fbr. Mr. Leek stated that i� a coennunity doesn' �t �dop� it' s full sha�re housin� goals, it �rill lase points when Metxo Council eva].uates � grant application. Mx�. Boardma,n stated they should look at th� City of Fridley �� a nei�hbor and a p�xt of the metropolitan area �nd we should share the problem. A�. Oquis� asked if we h�,dn't a�lready done our fair share. ' Mr. Board�n sta�ed w� �rere quite � bit beio�r what the avexage com�auality provid�s � �s iar �s housin� �oes. Nfr. Leek s�a�ced �hat without isolating gor industri�l e��:d pub�.ic l�nd� this commuuri- ity's averal.]. densi-ty is five (5� �eo�le �er acr�. Mr. Oquist r�oiced tYiat included industria7� wlli.c�a in Fridley is a hi�h percen�ta�e oe�r other con�uni�ies. Nh°. Leek stas�ed ith�t ���s corr�et. The indusicrial is �,pproxim��tely 22.1� �nd if you pull ou� about one fifth, you would be loo�in� at approxima-�e]9y 6'co 7 people per acre. If you pull out public land, whieh eonstitutes abou� 39�, you would be laokirn� at just under 10 people per acre. Mr. Oc�uist s�ated thmt his point was ths,t he didn'�C know ii we needed such high density development. Mr. Leek stated that in Frid].ey most of th� residen�ial l�nd was already developed �rhich means we have to search elsewhere, even at th�t a large portion of owr land is developed. In addit3on we are looking at 2300 units. As a fi�ure ichat sounds like a lot, but when you considex that Fridley already has 10,d00 housing units' it�s not th�t much mare, esp�cially when you think oi there bein� fewer people per unit. Mr. Oquist stated that �aas 25� more and was qu.ite a bit. Mr. Leek stated this �rould t�ke place over the next ten years and that is projected "� as bein� the peak of �row�th for residenti�l. construction in this c�nunity. -� �� m. SPECIAL MEETING � PLANIVING COMMISSION APRIL 1Z 1979 - PAGE 1�J Mr. Boardman stated that there is l�nd available in Fridley' but t�t land ie more difficult to u8e9 it's more expenaive to use or it's zoned industrial. and not ave,il.able for residential at this �ime. It's a matter of what our priorities are for the use of' that property. Ri�ht n.ow we a.re providing 1.2 jobs � per household in �he Ci�y of Fridley and we still have a lot of open industrial space. Another question is are we �oing to be the job cen�ter �'or the metropol.itan area? Do we want to provide jobs for everybody elses cormnuni�Cy? Do we want to provide 2.5 or 3.5 �obs per household in our cor�nunity? Or do we want to balance that more? Do we want to provide housing for the people who work in Fridley so they can ].ive in Fridley? P�. Gabel stated that in Appeals they hear people say th�at they moved here so they could have open space and they don't w�nt to be packed in. Mr. Baardman stateci that won'�t h�,ppen. Those.p�ople already have houses wi�h yards and the housing 4rill stay essentially the same in Fridley. Mr. Oquist stated they would be packing in more �raffic and more people would be usin� tY� services. ' N1r. Boardman stated that more people would be payin� for the services also. 2ds. G�bel stated we have a responsibili�cy to �the people who are already here. Mr. Boardm�n sta�ed they were also ��yin� iar the services �or people who utilize �he busine�ses. They have to �rork ou� �a balance. They are not t�lkin� about pa.cking the neighborhoods or the people who are already existing here. Fridley is primarily a single fami.ly coirnnun.ity and it will remain single family• 'I'heY will not see a major change in that and the only cY�nge in that wi].l be energy related.. Thos� kinds of chan�es �re already taking place. People are splitting off �their basements and renting '�hem out. They are doing �Cheir o�ra �acking. Aqr. Saunders asked ii Fridley was involved in the District Hea�ting S-tudies �that the Energy Agency is promo�tin�. Mr. Harris 8tated �Chat we have the Energy Project Cam�ittee that is looking �� the energy situation. P�c. Oquist stated that the talk of development and densi�ty cox�cerns him. a � �I Mr. goardman s�ta�ced tha�t he understood his concern, but the type of development they were talking abouic and the Zoc�t3on of the devel.opments are periphera�l deve�.opmen�CS primari7y. They are developments that presently have a road system to servic� them. They were not tr�lking about developments w3.thin a neighborhoai where tihey would �o into a residential srea and take down fiee or six blocks of hames arad put up a concentra�ed developmen�. They were not talking about that bec�use in the first place, when you have a higher concentration you have to service tha� concentration with a ro�d systeffi that can handle it. Mr. T.,eek stated that another reason it wouldn't happen was that Fridley's housing �'^� stock is sound and there is no reason for �t�kirig down sound housing to put up � 'concentrated housing. T"1 � � SPECIAL MEETING - PLANNING CON�IISSION, APRIL 11, 1979 _ PAGE 11 Nir. Oqu�at asked what would happen if a tornado went throiagh. Mr. Harris atated that because of service� and established street patterns, it would probably be built much the same. Mr. Oquist stated that aome etreets had all the traffic they could handle without increasin� the density. Mr. B�rdman stated that may not be a problem of density so much as the road pattern that's ex3.sting. 1+�. Harris stated th�� they may have to do some ra�jor overhaul on the road patterns. N�. Oquist st�ted that then �o provide for this density, they �rould have to chan�e �the road patterns. Mr. Boardman stated that the road pattern was a problem now. He stated that the primary problem with the transportation system in the City naw was the north-south access route. That wi11 do nothing but increass traffic. , I+�. Oquist stated that to brin� in more density� they will ha�re to h�ve more exits off those roads. P�s. Gabel asked if' this discussion didn't belo� under housing. NIr. Harris stated that it was important to discuss ichese things. A2r. Leek stated that in discussing housing, they should keep in mind that the City has very li�tle impact on market conditions and what housirig is �oing to be pro- vided except for the minimal pressures we can put to bear because of our zoning cales. If in fact, in ten years materia7. costs and labor costs go down� people are �oing to build single family homes no matter what our code says. Mr. Aarris stated th�t the whole question of land use and density impac� more than just land use. City services iuust be provided. and also� right now we are figuring 1 child per household in the school districts. That could be a disaster for the schools. Mr. Boardman stated that the impact on the school districts would not change a lot. He stated that it depended on the type oi units they were looking at. Townhouses like in Inn.sbruck have a very small child population. Mr. Harris stated his point was that they should be careful when they �et into the land use area that it doesn't all end up in one area. They should make sure that it�s spread. Mr. Boardman agreed. He stated that there would be concentrations within one area like in Innsbruck. There would be concentration w3thin one building structure but ,.� there would be more open space. They will not give up the open space for housing units. SPECTAL MEETII� - PLANNING CON�IISSION' APRIL 11� 1979 PACE ]2 A�br. Oquist asked if they had done ar�y studies on the available land left in Fridley � and see what the density level woul.d be if they maintained the avera�e. Would all th�°la�d left to build on satisfy bringin� in 2300 more units? Mr. I,eek stated they had not done th�t but they have inventoried what �aas available re�idential land. • Ms. Gabel asked if that included 40 foot lots. Mr. Boardman stated they had included all of the land that is residential that is open including �+0 foot ].ots. Mr. Harris e�tated they should talk about density and what the optimum should be. Mr. Leek stated. tha't each couIInunity and each neighborhood area must be assessed individually. Mr. Harris suggested that they take a nei�hborhoal area. Mr. Leek that �he area just north of Mississippi' near Terrace Park and the l+�ado�a- lands, for example, would have an optimum densiicy of 3 to 5 uni�s per acre. Thst is sin�le family density. Mr. Harris su�g�sted they look at density for these 2300 uriits. In future construction what kind of densities should they look at and obviously it would be multiple use. Mr. Boardman stated he �thought they woula see a mixture of diiferent types of units. � They woul.d still have the single iamily uni�cs and would see a medium density in some areas. There�could even be a difference in the site. It could range from low to m�dium to high density. Mr. Earris stated he was lookin� for an average. He wanted. more definitive ansr�ers. If th�y had 30 acres and �Chey were going to put �bout 20 uni�ts on it� that �ives us a better idea. Mr. Board�n stated they 4�ere not looking at hign densi�y concentrations. He felt they were looking more in the area of inedium densi�y concentration� such as an apartment type concentration. Mr. Harris stated. that if they could put 500 to 600 units on a 30 acre tract� that's �Eelling him that in order to provide for 2300 units� they would need four to five sites like that. Do we have four or five sites like that? Nlr. Boardman stated we have �bout 1500 acres of industrial property. He pointed out on the map several areas that have the poasibility of mixed usage. Mr. Harris sta�ted that when they inventory th�se pa�rticular sites they should be aure th�y can in actuality be built on and can support wha't we are talkin� about. Mr. Boardm�in stated he felt they could. ri � - S�'ECl/aL MEETING d PLANNING COA9MISSION, APRIL 11, 1�79 PAGE 13 n Nir. Boardman s �ated. �tha� he did no� see ichat City-wide de�sity would ga u1� tha� much b�caus� the sin�le family ax°eas ar� becamin� lese dense. Ten years �o in th� sin�le f�mi].y househalds there were �.3 persons per household. and nota there ax�e 2.g to 3.1 p�rso�s per household. Mr. I-i�rris stated that wa,s a f�ct they were not takin� into effect in our presen�t zonin� cale. They refexred to lot size and not density. Mr. L��k st��ted tha� in t�llcin� �bout density they were talkiug about two thin.�s. First of' �11 �there 3s population dex�si�y �hich is the number of people per area. The other kind of der�sity is the number of uriits per acre' and t�aa't depe�ads upon architectur�l design. What they F�ill. h�ve to look at is th� process w3thin the City which loo2ss at e�ch site which potentially can �e deve].oped into m�dium or high density housing and evaluuates the proposal for tha�t site in terms of ho�rr �the units reZate �o oi�e another withir� the site and how the �evelopmen�L rel�tes to it's nei�hbors tJhether the nei�hbors are industri�l or co�ercial or residential �nd the way it �°ela��es �o the City �s a who].e. In the housin� pla,n this is sonae� thing we try �o addres�. Traditionally, wh�t we h�ve -thought of in 'cerms of densi�y is apar�men� buildings. But th�at is no�; nec�ssaril.y �he only form svailable aor the development o£ density. Th�re �re alterrm�ives :�or hame o�tnersYlip r�i�trin multiple unit �Cinds oi structures tha� h�ve �he senss o� sin�le f'�a�ily homes. This is an �lic�rnativ�. Mr. Board.m�n st�iced that wl�at they were saying was that �th�re is open space in n F�°idleys and �ha't �.and wil.]. be developed.. Mr. Oquist sta-ted they had �to be c�,re�u7. when �th�y fil]. those spac�s up. They have a lot �f acrenge and �they shauld spread it out. Mr. Boaa°dm�n s�aica+d that develvpm�nt pressux�°es tirere heavy snd i�t F�ould behoove the City to determine what uses �ae want on the av�ilable property. There are �my demaa�ds such a� for t�ie elderly, services, housing units and housing uni�ts for youtag peop].e. Mr. Harris s�ated th�t vhey �roulei h�ve to t�lk �bout -�his again and asked N1r. Boardman if he und�rstood th� direcicion they �re�e talkir� abou�. Mr. Boardman sta'ted th�y should be �C��in� more policy as f�r �s �ensi�;y goes. Ms. Gabel stated she had a ques�ion about i�tems 1, 2 and 3 on page 68. She felt this tied in�o the question of �+0 foot lo'cs and was cYaanging the philosophy ihey had followed up �o nosa. Mr. Boaxdmmn stated he agreed ttlat Items 1, 2 and 3 should no�t be in here. Th� iirst sentence oY° th�t p�ragraph was fine but those three items should not be here. He also stated that �Lhe philosopY�y �ras changing and tha�t Co�unity Development had reeammen�e�. less than the 9,000 square foot, they h�d recommended 7500 square feet and Human Resources h.�d also recoamiended 7500 squ�re feet. _ �"� SPECIAL MEFTII�TG - PL/1NNING CONlMISSION APRTL 11 197� PAGE 14, Mr. Leek sta�ed �hey should keep in mind, thr�t the first one talks about a range � of lot 3izes. This daes not say tha'� the City should go to �+0 foot, lats. An 8,000 aquar� foot lot is a good size 1ot. Mr, H�rris st�ted they ��ere talkin� square foot��e not density. Mr. Oquist stated th�t Community Development had reco;rnnended th�y go vrith a density program. I�. Boardman stated th��t the question w�e what density should they be ta,lking about. Mr, Harris stated that was something they should discuss. Ms. Ga'�el stated tha� �hey were promoting lcw cos� housing and there were a lot of ramifications to that. , Nir. Tioardman st�ted they were not t�lkin� about lo�a cost housing. They were talking about reducing the cost o� housing. Mr. Oquis� s�tated. -�hat we need a goad de�ini�tion o� ].ow cost housing. Mr. H�rris stated that in discuss�i_ng this yer�rs ago, they had mixed up the terms low cos� housing wi�h substandard housing. They �re two different �hings. He stated that -the present cades proviaes ior a pre�ty goad q,u.ality house as f'�r as s�tructural values and energ,y e�ficier�cy goes. !�; Ms. Gabel stated sh� �rss o�posed to allawi�g homes wi'chout �garages because i�c is � da'ragerous -to �he heal�ch, safety and 4re��are ofi' the p°ople -to have �unk lyz� around. She sVated �ha�c people wexe saying icha�t "�hey had to put in �arages' and �ahy shouldn°t people comin� in have a ga�a�e. Mr. Boardm�m s�ated th��t standards chang�. I�. I�e�k stated that thp cos�C of � garage�o �iatel�rSitgwould notsbehsex�vingsthe and unless the C i-ty r� s o�d s to tha'� app p Ye population. Ms. G�bel st�'ced that by not requiring garages� �hey woul.d be running into a coamluni�y at-�i�:ude and we hav� a responsibi�ity to the co�ununity as a tahole. N1r. Boa�dman stat�d ichat the Council migh-t not go along �aith everythixig in here, but there are questions that h�ve to addressed. Ms. Gabel stated she didn't think we should be locked into these three items. Mr. �oard.man stated there were re�sa�s for those such as economic reasons. Mr. Leek etr�ted he could understand her objection to those kinds o� changes to the housing code� but they must keep in mind the pwcpose of reducing t��he°cost� � bousing in Fridley. He asked what ali;ernrxtives there were to reduci�g of housing without jeop�rd.izin� �he zoning cale for single �'ami1,y. ,,� f� �� SPECIAL MEETING - PL��INING COMM255ION, APRIL 11� 1979 ____ - ' PAGE 15 I�. I�artin st��ed tha'� w� had to consider young people bec�uc�e most houses on �the market �re out oi their reach. A'Ir. Harris st�ted that wha� they used to think w�s thaic they should combine the number of' �joba wfth households, figuring in those day� there was one worker per household. Do we still ti�ant ta do that? Mr. Boardman stated thai� �t this time� we were looking mor� a�t proxim3ty of working a,re�� to � population. Mr. Le�k st�t�d that in general terms� �h�,ic rule of �tY�umb served itts purpose because it helped to keep the City va.able, but it did tha'V by providing a certain tax b�.se and a certain sales receipt base, no�t bec�use it provid�d one job per household. What's becomming impor�tant ie that you provide hous:ing ich�-t has ready, effici�izt �nd amenable access to concentrations of' c�ployment aazd �Chose concemtr��tions o�' employxnen-� should incre�,singly be scat�ttreci �hroughau� �he me�ropoli�tan re�ion. Concentrai;ed empl.oyment c�uses problems with traii'ic a�nd economics. Th�,t is �aYY�y it is important to look aic the provision o�' jobs wi�hin the co�nuni�ty. , . Mr. Bo�rdman s�ated �Ghat thr� bal�nce of th�t is �Chey �rant to provide households to sea°vice job i'acilities because o� energy. E�ergy is going to have to be addressed by all communiicies. People c�n�t afiord °�o 'cravel a grea'� dis�ance to � job. �^ Mr. Leek stated th�t p�ople would be n�arrc�wing th�ir job search. Mr. Boerdman s�ated t}�er� woulcl h�tPe �co be c�ran��s in compa�y �ttitudes reg�x�ding �r�us�'ers even within the metropoli�ar� area. I�. L��k s�a;ted �hat in regard to sos�e of the quesiions ra�ised here by Ms. Gabel and Mr. Oquisi;9 they should laok �t page 5�+, H1�N0. Mr. Bor�adman r�f�rred �o HZ50 on p�,ge 5�. Mr. Leek stated that �� s�y we don't h�ve to p�ovide 2300 ua�i�is, but we shou].c� pro�fide " �820. Mr. Oc�uist ask�d wY�y we h�d to have 1.�24� unitsZ A�r. Bo�,�dn�n stated �cliat Vras Fridley's �u:L� share based on an aZlocation o� housing. This cam� fram Metx�o Council. � b9r. Le�k sta�ed �h.at what it does is �llocate to Fridley roughly 2.06�0 of riew housing in �che metro area. _ Mr. Haxris stated f�hat he could see the Plaruler's point. If we can provide 1850� we coul,d �o t�e rest of the wr�y �nd provide the 2300 units. Ms. Gabel stated she did not have a problem wi�h �chat. She had a problem with � saying they �aer� �oin� �o be on s�aa].ler lots and m�lce �hem smaller houses. � Mr. Boardman atated tha�t Items 1, 2 ancl 3 w�re an atteffip� �o reduce the cost of sin�le �'am3.ly �ousin�. SPECIAL N�'ETING -�£.�ANNING COMMISSION, APRIL 11! 1�79 - PAGE 16 , .; Ma. Gabel st�ted they were providing a di�f�rent Qur�li�y oY life with ��ose thre� '� it�ms, ' . Mr. Boardman st�tcd there were so�e b��ic questions �hey had to a.ddress. First of �11 is the cost of housin�. j4That can �t�he City do to reduce -ihe cos� of k�ousin�? Another que�tion is the provision of addi-tional riausing. What can the C3ty do to provide that additiona�l housin� a�id to provide the services to go aloizg with that housing such as jobs, transportation services and parks �nd recreation facilities. The third ques�ion is how can we incre�se '�hose amtnenities and still �x°ovide for 'che ee�lo�ical balance with the m�:�ropolitan a�ea. Here �re get into n�tural. re� sources such as fihe wa�;er qia.ali�y oi �the river, runo��� we�t�.and preserv�tio�a as c�m- par�d to we�tex° recharge �,re�. Thes� ��°e the basic queE�cions we have to ans�rer. � NJ�. G�bel stated �hex°e h�d �o be a bettex° «�y -�o address that a�.cl she thoughc i� was densiicy, Mr. Harri� stated th�t den�ity was � ve� useiul �t�ol in� a 1o�t ot' �°esp�cts. Mr. Boardma,n st�ted that �h�n the zaning c�de was seic u� it was ba�s�d on density', ho�rever they turned �rouxid an� as�ced ho�a do we eval.u�te densi�j�, and Lh�y Pvdluate dens i-ty by squai°e ioo� . And what �Lha,t did wa s�1zYnixiaf e clust�r ��ousino and the to�rnhause development �ait�out approva7.. Iic alZotas aensit;y� per acx°e and inst��d of raakin� goo� u�e .of th� Z�nd as iax as land cs�n�otu a and tiae�`].ands� i�i allowed. ior peopZe -co do �things lil{e fill in �retlailds 'co build o� them. � 2. OTFiER BUSIN�SS: � Mr. Sa��ers stated th�� h� had been asked by th� HTa�a� �iesources �CU x�e�,d a proc�rzIIZat�an �°e�a,x°dix� �he Y���° of tl�� ChiZd. Iis �.Ae�,cl ihe �r�c�.��ti�n and st��ed i� �r�,s to be pr�sentec� to Council. He �si�ed iQ '�he Pl��ir�q Coznmission or th� Hu�an Righ� Ca�aaission should ma�ke tka;: p�r���v�v�tion. P�. Harris sug�es�ea he �sk Peter Treuenief�" to poZl. tl�e h�� Resources Co�ission �nd see what f�h�y �ra�t�:d �co �.o. Mr. Le�k stated �:ha� if they wrant�d, �chey couba have both commissions m�lce the px°esenta��ion . MOTION l�y N�. Oquistr second�d by Ms. Gabel �o �djou'rn the Apri1 lly 1g79y speci�,l meetin� of t�he Planning Co�issior.. iTPON A VOICE V(YT'E9 AY,L VOTII�'G AYE, C�AIRMAN HARRiS DECLARID THE D�TING AAJOURNED AT 10:10 P.A7. Respeet�ully submi.tted: ��� �j ,.::/f���� hy ��ton' �Recos°cling ecretaYy � � _�_---. �