PL 12/22/1993 - 30783�
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CITY OF FRIDLEY
PLANNING COMMISBION MLETING� DECEMBER 22, 1993
CALL TO ORDER•
Chairperson Newman called the December 22, 1993,
Commission meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.
ROLL CALL:
Members Present: Dave Newman, Dean Saba, Dave
LeRoy Oquist, Connie Modig
Members Absent: Diane Savage, Brad Sielaff
Planning
Rondrick,
Others Present: Michele McPherson, Planning Assistant
Sarah Gardner, 3300 Edinborough Way, Edina, MN
Ty Wilson, University Billiards, Inc.
Greg Asproth, University Billiards, Inc.
APPROVAL OF DECEMBER 8 1993, PLANNING COMMIS5ION MINUTES:
MOTION by Mr. Oquist, seconded by Ms. Modig, to approve the
December 8, 1993, Planning Commission minutes as written.
IIPON A VOICE VOTE� ALL VOTINO AYE� CBAIRPER80N NEWMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY.
1. PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDERATION OF A SPECIAL USE PERMIT. SP
#93-17 BY UNIVERSITY BILLIARDS. INC.:
Per Section 205.17.01.C.(4) of the Fridley City Code, to allow
an expansion of a commercial recreation use, on Lots 4, 5, and
6, Block 1, Paco Industrial Park, except the North 35 feet of
said Lot 4, generally located at 7178 University Avenue N.E.
MOTION by Mr. Saba, seconded by Mr. Kondrick, to waive the reading
of the public hearing notice and open the public hearing.
UPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED AND THE PIIBLIC HEARING OPEN AT 7:35 P.M.
Ms. McPherson stated the subject parcel is located in the Rice
Creek Business Center whiah is located at the intersection of
Commerce Circle South and Commerce Circle East. University Avenue
runs north and south along the easterly edge of the subj ect parcel .
The property is zoned M-1, Light Industrial. There is C-2, General
Business District, zoning to the north. Directly to the north of
the subject parcel is U.5. Swim & Fitness. To the east is M-2,
Heavy Industrial, and additional M-1, Light Industrial, zoning to
the west.
� PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING. DECEMHER 22, 1993 PAaE 2
Ms. McPherson stated the petitioner received a special use permit
in 1988 which established the business. Eleven stipulations were
issued under the first special use permit in February, 1988. At
that time, the facility was 5,186 sq. ft. In July, 1988, the City
Council reviewed the special use permit for compliance with the
stipulations and chose to remove 4 of the stipulations including
the one regarding hours of operation. In 1989, a second special
use permit was issued to expand the facility to its current 7,792
sq. ft. There were 6 stipulations as condition of approval for
that expansion. The petitioner has complied with all of those
stipulations.
Ms. McPherson stated the petitioner is requesting to expand into
two vacant tenant spaces--one to the west and one to the south of
the existing space. This expansion space will allow the addition
of 16 pool tables, five arcade games, two dart games, an e�tpansion
to the kitchen facility, and the addition of a pro shop. The total
square footage for this tenant would then total 13,792 sq. ft.
Ms. McPherson stated that under Section 205.17.O1.C.(4) of the
zoning code, a special use permit may be issued for commercial
recreation use complying with 5 standards:
�`` 1. The parking supply is to be in compliance with the
requirements of the City code and be sufficient to
support full occupancy of the building.
2. Only wall mounted signs are permitted.
3. The use is to demonstrate that it will not generate
levels of traffic which reduces the existing level of
service on adjacent streets.
4. The City Council needs to be of the opinion that the
proposed use if compatible in the area it is located.
5. The building owner/agent shall be responsible for
information any prospective tenant of the property's
actually zoned for industrial, and not commercial, use.
Ms. McPherson stated the Code section also allows for some
flexibility in the maximum gross floor area for both tenant size
and percentage of total building to be considered on an individual
tenant specific basis.
Ms. McPherson stated the petitioner has previously demonstrated
that the items 2, 3, and 5 can be met by the use . By granting
previous special use permits, the City Council has demonstrated
^ that they agree that the use is compatible in this area.
�--� PLANNING COMMI38ION MEETINa. DECEMBER 22, 1993 PAGE 3
Ms. McPherson stated that in the 1989 request, the staff analysis
focused on parking requirements of the facility and the subject
parcel. Again, staff is concerned about the parking situation.
Based on staff analysis, the proposed expansion will increase the
area occupied by the tenant to 13,792 sq. ft. or approximately 24�
of the building. Based on the uses within the tenant spaces, staff
has calculated that 82 spaces will be required by this tenant alone
which is approximately 1/2 of that provided by the site.
Currently, tenant usage needs 132 spaces and this will increase to
162 if the proposed expansion is approved.
Ms. McPherson stated there are 166 parking spaces provided on site.
If the proposed expansion is approved by the City Council, there
will be 6,003 sq. ft. of vacant, leasable space remaining. If
staff uses the speculative parking ratio of one space per 500 sq.
ft. , 12 spaces will be required in order to lease the remaining
space to a tenant of indeterminate use. However, there are only
four spaces remaining after the expansion which would then leave
the parcel underparked. To avoid an underparking situation, the
management company would be limited to leasing the remaining 6,003
sq. ft. to a tenant which is strictly or predominantly warehouse
with a small office space.
Ms. McPherson stated the management company is attempting to
� acquire a reciprocal cross parking agreement with U.S. Swim and
Fitness to the north. Currently, U.S. Swim and Fitness is allowed
to use spaces in the University Billiards portion of the parking
lot during peak hours for the fitness center. Staff has had
previous experience with U.S. Swim and Fitness patrons in which
they have created parking problems on Commerce Circle East. A memo
included in the staff report documents the staff concerns.
Ms. McPherson stated the police department also has some concerns
as indicated in the memos included in the staff report and in the
information distributed at the meeting which documents calls for
service at University Billiards as compared to Joe DiMaggio's. The
concern of the police department is the presence of juveniles under
the age of 18 in the tenant space after 9:30 p.m. which is in
violation of the curfew ordinance. At the time the staff report
was written, the police department recommended three actions
regarding this request:
1. The present request be denied;
2. The hours of operation be limited to 8:00 a.m. to 1:00
a.m.; and
3. That no juveniles be allowed in University Billiards
without their parents after 9:30 p.m.
� Ms. McPherson stated the current hours of operation are from 11:00
a.m. to 6:00 a.m. or possibly even 8:00 a.m. depending on the
number of patrons in the facility. .
� PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING. DBCEMBER 22, 1993 PAGE 4
�
Ms. McPherson stated that if the Planning Commission chooses to
approve the request for the expansion, the request by the police
department to limit the hours of operation and eliminate the
presence of juveniles after 9:30 p.m. has been recommended as
stipulations for approval. However, based on the analysis and the
fact that parking is a concern, approval of the request would
result in a lack of adequate parking for the site.
Ms. McPherson stated staff is recommending that the Planning
Commission recommend denial of the request to expand the commercial
recreational facility for three reasons:
1. The petitioner has adequate use of the facility as a
result of a previous expansion approved by the City
Council.
2. The increased parking demand generated by the expanded
use leaves little or no flexibility for the property
owner for re-occupancy of the building to more intensive
uses.
3. Documented parking supply problems with U.S. Swim and
Fitness.
Ms. McPherson stated that if the Planning Commission chooses to
approve the special use permit, staff recommends the following
stipulations as conditions of approval:
1. The hours of operation shall be limited from 8:00 a.m.
to 1:00 a.m.
2. No juveniles shall be allowed in the University Billiards
without their parents after 9:30 p.m.
3. The petitioner shall provide adequate adult staff at all
times with at least two adults on staff from 6:00 p.m.
to closing on Fridays and Saturdays.
4. The petitioner shall patrol parking lot and manage its
misuse.
5. No alcohol beverages shall be served or allowed on
premises.
6. The development owner shall notify the City of future
additions/expansions of vacant building space and shall
accept limitations on occupancy of remaining vacant space
should parking shortages result. The development owner
,...� shall agree in writing to accept this stipulation prior
' to the approval of the special use permit by the City
Council.
� PLANNINa COMMISSION MEETINa. DECEMBER 22, 1993 PAaB 5
7. The special use permit shall be reviewed by the City
Council one year from the date of approval or sooner if
the City determines there is a management problem which
requires further restrictions or removal.
Mr. Saba asked if, regarding the police statistics, Ms. McPherson
knew where the contacts were made at the University Billiards or
in the proximity of the facility.
Ms. McPherson stated she did not have an opportunity do discuss the
specifics of the police data. The information was provided just
prior to the meeting. She believes the information pertains to the
general area in and around the two facilities, University Billiards
and Joe DiMaggio's.
Mr. Newman stated that page three of the staff report lists five
conditions set out in the ordinance. The third condition speaks
to the use when it can be demonstrated that the operation will not
generate levels of traffic, etc. The proposal talks about
increasing traffic and asked if that is something the Commission
would have to re-examine again for each request for a special use
permit.
� Ms. McPherson stated it is; however, in that particular area, the
roads are designed for industrial use. The road design itself is
adequate. While staff did not analyze the actual number of trips
generated by the additional square footage, the petitioner has
pointed out that their hours of operation are opposite the typical
uses in the building. Therefore, while total traffic generated in
the area will be increasing, the traffic will likely occur opposite
average use.
Mr. Newman asked if the petitioner has seen the memos.
Ms. McPherson stated she did provide copies to the petitioners
prior to the meeting.
Mr. Asproth, an owner of University Billiards, stated their peak
hours are from 9:00 p.m. to 3:00 a.m. U.S. Swim and Fitness' peak
hours are over by 8:00 p.m. He does not anticipate more cars by
expanding but rather the elimination of the waiting list for pool
tables. There has not been a parking conflict with the other
tenants in the'building. The owners plan to compile docwnentation
of how many cars they have during business hours since University
Billiards is open from 11:00 a.m. Normal business hours run until
5:00 p.m., and University Billiards does not have very many
customers between those hours.
� Mr. Asproth stated they are currently not open 24 hours and do not
plan to be. Approximately 300 of their business is between 12
midnight and 3:00 a.m. Many nights there is a long waiting list
� PLANNINa COMMI38ION MEETING. DECEMBBR 22. 1993 PAaE 6
and, if they close earlier, many people would not be able to play.
Most of the problems have happened between 11:00 p.m. and 1:30 a.m.
partially because they do not have enough tables. Long waiting
lists create more anxiety. More space to seat people and more pool
tables will help them oversee and better manage customers.
Limiting hours to 1:00 a.m. or 2:00 a.m. will have a negative
effect, because they would be required to close during the peak of
their business and many people would not have had a chance to play
pool. University Billiards does not have a bar, and 90� of the
revenue comes from playing pool. If required to close early, they
would need to serve alcohol in order to survive. They do not know
of any non-alcohol pool rooms that close at 1:00 or 2:00 a.m.
Mr. Asproth stated University Billiards is the premier and busiest
place to play pool in Minnesota. If they are required to change
hours, their work and investment to be the best will be taken away.
Currently, staff posts and enforces curfew rules. The way he
understands the curfew rules is as loafing or loitering after 9:30
p.m. if under age. The way staff enforces the curfew is, after
midnight, to card and refuse the business of all minors 17 years
and younger. At 10:00 p.m., staff ask all 16 years and younger to
leave even if they are playing pool and not loitering. This is not
an easy task. After 9:30 p.m., youth of this age can go to movies,
attend football games and dances, and they don't understand it when
� they are asked to leave the billiard hall.
Mr. Asproth stated he and his partner have been at the site every
night since April 1988, and they want to make sure that the curfew
and rules are maintained. They announce over the intercom when
minors must leave, and they go around and card people. They
currently have approximately 10 employees with an average age
between 23 and 24. If the hours are cut, jobs too will be cut.
They currently have 5-6 employees every weekend and holiday nights
with at least two people at closing time. They have 3-4 employees
during the weekday nights at peak hours and 1-2 at closing time,
not including the owner(s) present.
Mr. Asproth stated the employees walk the parking lot every 10-15
minutes to remove any loiterers and pick up trash. They hired a
parking lot attendant for awhile when there were a rash of car
break-ins. They believe that the thieves who were caught were not
customers, but drive-by thieves capitalizing on the possibility of
getting car stereos. They ban any customer permanently for
drinking. They do not accept alcohol in or around their business.
Mr. Asproth stated that when reading the statement from the police
department, he was surprised and confused about the 143 calls for
service. Since he or his partner, Ty Wilson, are present every
night and neither they, nor their employees have called that many
times, he can only guess that these calls include customers that
lock their keys in the cars, the times the police have driven
through and questioned people, or when they have called in for
,� PLANNING COMMISBION MEETING. DECEMBBR 22, 1993 PAaE 7
missing or runaway kids or for medical reasons. They also know
these numbers are combined with U.S. Swim and Fitness calls.
Mr. Asproth stated that what he finds confusing is that they hardly
made a call the first two years in business. The officers openly
encouraged them to call in, and they did make calls before trouble
happened. Their goal is to have a clean, safe place for people to
play pool and not worry about trouble makers. They run the
strictest and safest pool room around. They recently talked with
an officer and asked him how they rated. The officer said that for
all the people the businesses attracts, they have very few
problems. He stated the officers know they try hard.
Mr. Asproth stated the Moore Lake Health Club closes at midnight
and U.S. Swim and Fitness is open 24 hours. He does not know the
number of customers at Joe DiMaggio's. University Billiards has
approximately 300-400 people on a weekday and 550-650 people on
weekends, and approximately 300,000 people over a two-year period.
He stated a few bad people have tarnished their reputation and what
is overlooked is all the good people that come through their doors.
He thinks he has proven to the police department that they are
dedicated to running a good business.
Mr. Asproth stated their investment is very large, and they hope
!� these changes and additional space will spread the people around
a little more and have them playing pool rather than waiting a long
time to get a table. If they are allowed to expand they will one
of the best upscale, non-alcohol rooms in the U.S. They will
attract a better and older clientele by serving good food at a
reasonable price. Their customers will be better served, and 5-6
more jobs will be created as a result of the expansion.
Ms. Modig stated the memo showing the comparison of calls to the
police department shows 143 total calls for University Billiards.
Does that seem more in keeping with what you think would be your
calls?
Mr. Asproth stated they call about once per month. When he sees
this, he does not know where it comes from. They do not have that
many problems.
Ms. Modig stated the comparison shows 24 alcohol related offenses.
Since this is a non-alcohol establishment, how are these numbers
explained?
Mr. Asproth stated this must happen outside, because they do not
allow alcohol in the facility.
Ms. Modig stated the peak hours are between midnight to 3:00 a.m.
� and that seems to go along with the hours that the bars close.
That seems to contribute to the problems even though University
Billiards is not serving alcohol.
� PLANNING COMMISBION MEETING, DECEMHER 22, 1993 PAQE 8
Mr. Asproth stated they do not really see a bar rush. They often
do not hear about these either. Some people are pulled over as
they come in, and they, the owners, do not know about it. He does
not condone drinking and he would like it if no one drank when
coming to their business. As far as the other calls, he has a hard
time figuring out how the number of calls could change so
drastically.
Mr. Saba stated one report appears to be detailed information while
another seems to be a summary of the data.
Ms. McPherson stated the chart in the memo of December 21, 1993,
documents 143 incidents. The police picked those incidents which
they feel can lead to more violent crimes. Of the remaining 300
or so calls, these are probably the more typical calls such as
locking keys in the car, several calls for service, etc. She
regrets not having had time to speak to the police department about
this information in more detail.
Ms. Modig stated the memo does not indicate to which establishment
the calls are related. It could be U.S. Swim and Fitness or
University Billiards.
!� Mr. Saba thought a part of that could also be due to people who
come to the area after a party or drinking at a bar. These people
are obviously getting alcohol somewhere else since University
Billiards does not serve alcohol.
Mr. Asproth stated it seems strange to see alcohol-related offenses
when University Billiards does not serve alcohol.
Mr. Saba asked what type of sacurity does University Billiards
maintain during the hours when these calls are made.
Mr. Asproth stated their staff is large enough to watch the parking
lot and the inside of the establishment. The owners are also on
site every night.
Mr. Saba asked if it would make sense to have a security officer,
and if Mr. Asproth knew of any other places that had a security
officer.
Mr. Asproth stated he did not know if having a security officer
would make sense. One other place had a security officer and it
is now out of business. The numbers from the police do not make
sense to him. Neither he nor his staff have called even for a
small percentage of these calls.
� Mr. Saba suggested that there may be others making calls that he.
is not aware of.
�---, PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING. DECEMBER 22, 1993 PAGE 9
,
Mr. Asproth stated a number of these calls must be from U.S. Swim
and Fitness.
Mr. Saba stated that U.S. Swim and Fitness is not as much of a
family place as the Moore Lake Racquet Swim and Fitness, and this
perhaps draws a different element.
Mr. Asproth stated they had approximately 300,000 people at their
establishment in the past two years and, because of these numbers,
this could happen.
Ms. Modig asked how Mr. Asproth would address the problem with
parking.
Mr. Asproth stated they have no parking problem. Their business
is at night and does not overlap with other businesses in the
center. They have open spots during their business hours.
Mr. Saba asked the operating hours of University Billiards.
Mr . Asproth stated they open at 11: 00 a. m. but they have no set
closing time. It is usually from 4:00 a.m. to 8:00 a.m. depending
on the type of business they have. Holidays and weekends are busy
and they stay open for the business. They usually don't find
� problems are because of the hours they are open. It is during peak
times when there are many people there.
Mr. Saba asked if people try to bring in alcohol.
Mr. Asproth stated people have tried but they kick them out right
away i f caught . Someone has 1 ikely gotten away with it at some
time but they do everything they can to stop them.
Ms. Modig asked if there is someone at the door to check ID's and
card patrons.
Mr. Asproth stated that on weekends, they always have someone at
the door. During weekdays, there is not always someone there, but
they have someone patrol inside to card those who appear young and
to keep the place clean. In their business, it is not a good idea
at a late hour to mix the young and the old. Parents do not
appreciate it.
Mr. Newman referred to the stipulations. Speaking hypothetically,
assuming the petitioners' choice was to operate as they are now or
be approved for the special use permit with the stipulations, what
would be their preference?
Mr. Asproth stated they would go out of business if they accepted
,,_,\ the stipulations as proposed. With the stipulation to close at
' 1:00 a.m., they could not remain in business.
� PLANNINa COMMISSION MEETING. DECEI�BER 22. 1993 PAGE 10
Mr. Newman stated it sounds as if you would prefer to stay as you
are rather expand and have the hours of operation curtailed.
Mr. Asproth stated, yes, if that was the choice. Their goal is to
have a better place.
Mr. Wilson, owner, stated the sport of pocket billiards is booming.
Over the last five years, the sport has grown by more than 50�.
Last year, 37 million Americans played pool at one time or another.
Years ago, billiards had a one-sided personality. It was a men-
only sport played oftentimes in less than reputable establishments.
Today, billiards is gaining the respect it deserves. Billiards is
a multi-faceted sport that allows men and women, young and old to
compete on an equal basis. Strategy and concentration mark the
skill of a good player, not size and strength.
Mr. Wilson stated that when he and Mr. Asproth opened their pool
room over five years ago, their main focus was to separate
themselves from that stereotypical pool room. They bought first
rate equipment and spared little expense in an effort ta show that
they plan to stay in business for the long term. They believe they
have done just that. They offer a comfortable atmosphere for young
and old alike.
�"�, Mr. Wilson stated they offer organized activities every week night,
weekly and monthly tournaments, ladies night on Wednesday nights,
and family days on weekends. They are offering billiards as a form
of recreation and entertainment. In an attempt to control
loitering, they implemented a cover charge. This acts as a coupon
for a discount on table time. This discourages people from coming
in for any reason other than playing.
Mr. Wilson stated that most billiard raoms go out of business
because of poor management, absentee owners, or loss of control of
clientele. In an effort to combat this, they have hired older
employees and an owner is there every single night. As far as U.S.
Swim and Fitness and the calls, he stated they have been instructed
to call the police even if someone feels faint in any way or
anything like that so that could account for some of the calls.
Mr. Newman stated the most recent report excludes medically-related
calls.
Ms. Modig stated another billiard hall is on Highway 65 and
Osborne. How does that hall compare to University Billiards?
Mr. Wilson stated it does not compare because that facility serves
liquor. He stated their business did not decline even though the
other facility is in close proximity. Most of their customers do
not want to be in a place where there is alcohol.
� PLANNING COMMI88ION MEETING. DECEMBER 22, 1993 PAGB il
Ms. Modig stated there must be some explanation for the fact that
there were 24 calls related to alcohol in a two-year period for a
business that serves no alcohol.
Mr. Oquist stated his concern is that U.S. Swim and Fitness is tied
in with University Billiards, which are two different businesses.
Even when talking about the Rice Creek Business Center where
University Billiards is located, the health club is tied in as
well. He is not sure the figures are comparing the same thing.
Mr. Newman stated the numbers need to be broken out so they know
which calls were for which business.
Mr. Oquist stated the chart indicates 89 thefts over a two year
period; however, the owners are saying the calls are not coming
from their business. Where are these thefts occurring?
Ms. McPherson stated the police took the Rice Creek Business Center
strip mall with U.S. Swim and Fitness as a neighbor and compared
that to East Moore Lake Commons which has Joe DiMaggio's, the bank,
etc., and Northwest Racquet Club as a neighbor. When they are
talking about Joe DiMaggio�s, that is East Moore Lake Commons''
calls for service. If someone got into their car and realized
something was wrong, pulled into a gas station and stated they were
� at University Billiards and someone took their stereo, it would be
listed as University Billiards.
Mr. Newman stated it could then be possible to assume that a call
was related to University Billiards, because someone who parked in
the University Billiards parking lot had walked over to another
business.
Ms. McPherson stated that is possible. A car could also be parked
on the street in front of the strip mall, but the call may be
attributed to University Billiards even if the patron was at U. S.
Swim & Fitness.
Ms. Modig stated there is such a combination of parking in that
area that it is hard to know where the cars are coming from.
Mr. Saba stated any time that many cars are parked at that time of
night there will be many problems.
Mr. Kondrick stated U.S. Swim and Fitness is also open 24 hours so
that does not help in terms of the crimes.
Ms. McPherson stated the police have noted a definite difference
between the two areas.
� Mr. ATewman stated that when you have that many people going through
there, that is less than 1/2 of lo. Nonetheless, it does not
negate the fact that there is a concentration in that area.
^ PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING, DEC$MBBR 22, 1993 PAGE 12
Mr. Oquist stated the peak business times are 11:00 p.m. to 3:00
a.m. so this is �hen there is the highest concentration of cars.
If there is a parking problem, it is when the other businesses are
closed.
Mr. Wilson stated he does not believe they have a parking problem
because it is unusual to have 10 cars during the day. At night,
they have many more clients but the other businesses are closed.
Mr. Oquist asked if there had been complaints from the other
occupants.
Ms. McPherson stated there were no complaints about the use. The
complaints generated by the other tenants come as a result of the
patrons of U. S. Swim and Fitness parking on the street and blocking
the line of sight to get qnto the street. Mr. Barg's memo points
out that he has responded to complaints such that there have been
spots available in the U.S. Swim and Fitness parking lot on the
opposite side of the building, yet the street is full of cars
because patrons do not want to walk. U.S. Swim and Fitness does
have an agreement for parking across the street in the former
Minnesota Jobs and Training site, but very few patrons are forced
to use that. There is parking permitted on the street so, unless
� that changes, there will continue to be parking on the street.
This is typically before 5:00 p.m.
Mr. Wilson stated many of their clients come from some of the
businesses with three shifts. They also have bar workers and other
night shift workers who come in to play pool late at night before
going home. It is not always a bar rush with drunks. If they see
anyone obviously impaired by alcohol, they ask them to leave. They
run a tight operation.
Mr. Saba stated that referring to the stipulations, if the
Commission recommends approval with the stipulations, do they agree
with the other stipulations except the hours of operation?
Mr. Wilson stated that as far as the juveniles, they don't like to
mix younger kids and older patrons. They prefer and have an older
crowd late at night. In order to comply, they make an announcement
and card for those under age and ask them to leave.
Mr. Newman asked the definition of a juvenile.
Ms. McPherson stated a juvenile is anyone under the age of 18. She
stated the police are looking for a stronger effort in making sure
there are no persons under 18 regardless of whether they are
playing pool. They would like to see stricter enforcement of the
� 9:30 p.m. rule.
�--� PLANNINa COMMISSION MEETING, DECEMBBR 22, 1993 PAGB 13
Mr. Newman asked if having no one under the age of 18 after 9:30
p.m. would cause a problem.
Mr. Asproth stated it is hard to say yes or no. He met with Deputy
Director Lenzmeier about this, and he had no idea when he wrote his
first memo what University Billiards did as far as juveniles. If
a person is 17, out on a date and comes in after a football game,
it is embarrassing for them to be told they cannot come in. They
can be at a football game until after 9:30 p.m. Where else are
they going to go? This is not a bad environment. They get many
17 year olds at 9:30 p.m., but most play pool.
Mr. Newman asked if there is a problem with the staffing
requirements.
Mr. Asproth stated this is something they are already doing.
Mr. Newman asked about patrolling the parking lot and managing its
use.
Mr. Saba stated it sounded as if this could be done better. If
most of the problems are coming from the parking lot, having
someone out there more frequently would make a difference.
� Mr. Wilson stated there are concerns out there. If their patrons
have vandalism to their vehicles, it is hard to keep them as
customers. An employee is to go out every 15 minutes but they do
not always do that, but he believed they do go out at least twice
an hour. The parking lot problem was more of a problem a year ago
than it is now.
Mr. Saba asked about the lighting situation in the parking lot.
Mr. Asproth stated they had lights added around the building.
This area is not lit like the Moore Lake Shopping area. Their
parking lot is also different. On the crime issues, they make some
calls, because they want to stop a crime early on. They have
considered video surveillance. It would be easier to have
employees monitoring if there was a aamera.
Mr. Wilson stated the owners have the same fear as the customers.
If the patrons are uncomfortable, they will go somewhere else.
Mr. Newman stated the stipulation concerning alcohol is not a
problem since no alcohol is served at this location.
Mr. Newman stated he is very impressed with the hands-on
management, the presentation, and the owners' efforts to have a
high caliber business. He also has a great deal of respect for the
�,..� police department. He believed that more discussions between the
owners and the police department would help address some of the
�-.1 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETINa, DECEMBER 22. 1993 PA�E 14
concerns, including parking lot concerns. By doing so, they may
be able to work something out with the police department.
Mr. Asproth stated he spoke to Deputy Director Lenzmeier yesterday
and asked what they could do to make this work. He said he would
like to keep open communication between them and the police
department.
Mr. Kondrick stated that if he were another tenant in that
building, he would not like it because he wouldn't know what the
billiards business is about. It is not a bad business, but it is
the type of business which could create problems for the other
tenants. One of the things missing here is lighting which benefits
all the businesses. More lights will deter crime and also have
more visibility from University Avenue. Lighting is a big part of
the solution. The Commission should try to insist that this be a
part of this agreement.
Mr. Wilson stated he agreed it will help distract some of the crime
for all.
Mr. Kondrick stated the owners could survey much of the parking lot
from the building with more lighting.
�"\ Mr. Asproth stated, yes, but it does get busy so sometimes they
cannot see.
Mr. Kondrick felt lighting would be the best way to tackle the
problem.
Mr. Saba stated he thought the police department would prefer to
be called to prevent additional calls later on. The police
department does encourage calls to help prevent crimes. He agreed
with Mr. Kondrick that improving the lighting or surveillance or
parking security people would help. He would like to see something
added in terms of lighting.
Mr. 1Vewman asked what the owners' timeframe was for this project.
Mr. Asproth stated they would like to begin construction in mid-
January.
Mr. Newman stated he did not think this is the place to work out
lighting. One option is to table this and discuss it at the ne�
meeting. Regardless of the Commission's recommendation, the
request will go before the City Council. During the intervening
period, the owners could meet with the police department and come
up with a plan.
� Mr. Kondrick stated he would not be interested in going ahead
unless there are more lights. It needs lights, it always has, and
with lights the problems will stop.
�-.1 PLANNING COMMI38ION MEETINa, DECEMBER 22, 1993 PAaE 15
Mr. Saba stated he does not oppose the expansion. His concern is
the security in the parking lot. If these problems are taken care
of, he would be more likely to recommend approval.
Mr. Wilson stated he agreed that there are few problems inside the
premises. Most problems are outside.
Ms. Modig asked Ms. Gardner to address the stipulations.
Ms. Gardner stated that regarding leasing remaining space, they are
working with a current tenant who is looking at taking over the
vacant space for use as an office and warehouse. Regarding
parking, the spec plan shows 177 parking stalls, not 166 as stated
at the meeting. She does not know if a physical count was ever
done. There has never been a parking issue. There were some
parking problems with U.S. Swim and Fitness, and they did assign
some stalls for tenants.
Ms. Modig asked her comments regarding additional lighting.
Ms. Gardner stated there is additional lighting on the building and
lighting all around the building now. There is a walking path
there also. She asked if it would be possible for the City to
� light that path. From a landlord's standpoint, they did put more
lighting on the building and would consider additional lighting as
needed. There is only so much money available and it does not
matter if it is spent inside for construction or outside for
lighting.
Mr. Oquist stated there are some other issues to deal with. If the
Planning Commission recommends approval, the hours of operation are
to be changed from 8:00 a.m. to 1:00 a.m.
Mr. Saba stated he is more inclined to approve extended hours with
better security in the parking lot.
Ms. McPherson stated she did discuss with the petitioner that it
is possible the Commission may want to table the request. While
Deputy Director Lenzmeier clearly documented the conversations with
the petitioner, there is no clear direction as to whether or not
that changed the police department's attitude towards the presence
of juveniles. Because of these issue, plus there has not been time
for the petitioners to analyze cost issues for the lighting, it may
better serve the petitioners and the Commission to table further
discussion. The next City Council meeting is January 3, and these
issues would need to be resolved by that time.
Mr. Newman stated the Commission could also deny the request and
� forward it on to the City Council.
^ PLANNING COMMIB3ION MEETING. DECEMBER 22. 1993 PAGE 16
Ms . Modig stated she would not be comfortable in voting against the
request, but she would also not be comfortable in approving the
request because of the problems indicated by the police department.
She would like to see the request tabled.
Mr. Saba stated he would like to see the lighting addressed before
voting on the request. He would now be inclined to vote against
it the request.
Mr. Oquist stated there are a couple of stipulations that need to
be dropped. He doesn't think the police department is as strongly
against some of these things as it would appear. Staff may come
back with a different set of recommendations. He would approve the
request with some clarification on the stipulations. He thinks
there is some communication that could clarify some of these
points.
Mr. Newman asked the petitioners if they would like to discuss the
issues before the Commission takes further action.
Mr. Asproth and Mr. Wilson stated they would like to have some more
time to discuss these options.
MOTION by Ms. Modig, seconded by Mr. Saba, to continue the public
�"'1 hearing at the conclusion of the remainder of the agenda.
IIPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERSON NEWMAI�T DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED AND THE PIIBLIC HEARING CLOSED AT 8558 P.M.
2. RECEIVE THE MINUTES OF THE PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION
MEETING OF NOVEMBER 1, 1993
MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Saba, to receive the
November 1, 1993, Parks and Recreation Commission minutes.
IIPOld A VOICE VOTE� ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED T8E
MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY.
3. RECEIVE THE MINUTES OF THE HOUSING AND DEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY
MEETING OF NOVEMBER 18. 1993
MOTION by Ms. Modig, seconded by Mr. Kondrick, to receive the
November 18, 1993, Housing and Development Authority minutes.
IIPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE� CHAIRPERBON NEWMI�N DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY.
4. RECEIVE THE MINLTTES OF THE ENVIRONMENTAL OUALITY A1JD ENERGY
CO�ISSION MEETING OF NOVEMBER 30. 1993
/"�
�
,� PLANNING COMMISSION MEETINd. DECEMBBR 22, 1993 PAG� 17
MOTION by Mr. Saba, seconded by Mr. Kondrick, to receive the
November 30, 1993, Environmental Quality and Energy Commission
minutes.
IIPON A VOICE VOTE� ALL VOTINa AYE, CHAIRPERBON NEWMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY.
5. RECEIVE THE MINUTES OF THE PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION
MEETIAIG OF DECEMBER 6, 1993
MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Saba, to receive the
December 6, 1993, Parks and Recreation Commission minutes.
IIPON A VOICE VOTE� ALL VOTIATG AYE, CHAIRPER�ON NSWMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY.
6. OTHER BUSINESS:
a. Review Customer Service Surveys
Ms. McPherson stated that as part of the goals and objectives for
1993, the City Manager directed staff to conduct a customer service
survey. Each of the service areas developed surveys based on their
cycle of service for their program area. Community Development
�, sent out approximately 95 surveys from the land use cases of the
past two years and received 45 replies. To summarize the results,
the petitioners felt the process was clearly explained, the staff
report was well organized and factual, and the meetings were
conducted in a professional manner. Approximately 80� of the
respondents responded favorably.
Ms. McPherson stated a summary memo about the survey was included
with the agenda as well as the actual survey results. Staff
proposes to send out the surveys with the action taken letters and
tally the results on a quarterly basis with an annual review. The
written comments received are also included.
7. PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDERATIOId OF A SPECIAL USE PERMIT SP
#93-17, BY UNIVERSITY BILLIARDS� INC.:
MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Saba, to reopen the public
hearing.
UPON A VOICE VOTE� ALL VOTING AYE� CHAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED AND THE PIIBLIC HEARING RE-OPENED AT 9:05 P.M.
Mr. Asproth stated he and Mr. Wilson had discussed the issues and
agree to table the request.
Ms. McPherson stated the next Planning Commission meeting will be
� held January 12, 1994, and the next City Council meeting will be
February 7.
� PLANNING COMMISSION MEETINa. DECBMB�R 22. 1993 PAQ$ 18
�
Mr. Asproth stated he is not sure about the lighting.
Mr. Newman stated the owners need to talk to the police department
to see what they would recommend.
Mr. Oquist stated employees may also be more willing to go out into
the parking lot.
MOTION by Mr. Saba, seconded by Mr. Oquist to receive the
December 21, 1993, memo to Director Sallman regarding the visit
with Greg Asproth; the December 21, 1993, memo to Director Sallman
regarding comparison of calls for service; and the memo from Mr.
Robert Fields regarding vandalism.
IIPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERBON NEAMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY.
MOTION by Mr. Oquist, seconded by Mr. Kondrick, to continue the
public hearing to January 12, 1994.
IIPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOII3LY.
i"� ADJOURNMENT:
MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Saba, to adjourn the
meeting.
UPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERBON NEWMAN DECLARED THE
MOTION CARRIED AND THE DECEMBEIt 22, 1993, PLANNING COMMI88ION
MEETING ADJOIIRNED AT 9:20 P.M.
Resp�ctfully submitted,
�
Lavonn Cooper
Recording Secretary�°
,''�