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PL 10/05/1994 - 30797%^i CITY OF FRIDLEY PLANNING COMMIBBION MEETIN(3, OCTOBLR 5, 1994 CALL TO ORDER: Chairperson Newman called the October 5, 1994, Planning Commission meeting to order at 7:32 p.m. ROLL CALL: Members Present: Dave Newman, Dave Kondrick, LeRoy Oquist, Dean Saba, Brad Sielaff, Connie Modig Members Absent: Diane Savage Others Present: Barbara Dacy, Community Development Director Scott Hickok, Planning Coordinator Michele McPherson, Planning Assistant Steve Woodley, Wal-Mart Lynn Porath, Turning Point Adult Day Care Karen Russell, St. Philip's Church Art Swanson, Theisen Partnership Norma Swanson, Theisen Partnership Jim Yungner, The Gym, Inc. �j Bea Springer, Theisen Partne�ship Fran Theisen, Theisen Partnership Bob Theisen, Theisen Partnership Jan Westfall, Turning Point Adult Day Care Linda Newmann, Turning Point Adult Day Care Kathy O'Connell, McCombs, Frank, Roos & Associates Mike Gair, McCombs, Frank, Roos & Associates Paul Carlson, Close & Associates Gar Hargans, Close & Associates APPROVAL OF SEPTEMBER 21, 1994, PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES: MOTIOPI by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Oquist, to approve the September 21, 1994, Planning Commission minutes as written. IIPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYL, CHAIRPERSON NEWMAI�T DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY. 1. OLD BUSINESS: CONSIDERATION OF A SPECIAL USE PERMIT SP #94-14. BY WAL-MART STORES INC : Per Section 205.14.O1.C.(13) of the Fridley City Code, to allow the expansion of an existing garden center on Lot l, Block 1, Wal-Mart in Fridley, the same being 8450 University Avenue N.E. �� Ms. McPherson stated the request is to expand the existing built garden center located on the east side of the building. At the n PLANNING COMMI88ION MEETING OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAdE 2 last meeting, the Commission discussed the use of the garden center for off season storage of inerchandise as well as the existence of dropped trailers at the rear of the building and some unscreened pallets and baled cardboard in the trailer parking area to the south of the building. Ms. McPherson stated the Commission tabled the request to allow staff to work with the petitioner to resolve the issues of the trailer, baled cardboard, and pallet storage. Staff inet with the petitioner on September 27, 1994 to discuss the outdoor storage items. The petitioner agreed to immediately discontinue storage of materials in the temporary walled space in the garden center. They are working to remove the wall, move the merchandise from within that area, and store it in the dropped trailers. Staff proposed three alternatives to resolve the outdoor storage of the trailers and the pallets and baled cardboard as follows: 1. Extend the building. 2. Find adjacent off-site warehouse spaces 3. Screen the items. �; Ms. McPherson stated the petitioner indicated that Wal-Mart corporate would be in contact with staff regarding the options and what Wal-Mart proposed in terms of a solution. Late on October 5, 1994, staff received a letter from Mr. Torrey Herd, Project Manager, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., which in concept states that Wal-Mart is willing to screen the trailers as well as the pallets and baled cardboard, and that they would meet with staff on October 13 to determine suitable structure and design elements to accomplish that goal. With that, staff recommends approval of the request with the following stipulations: 1. No garden sales shall occur in the parking lot as conducted in 1994. 2. The petitioner shall not be permitted to display products on the front sidewalk. 3. The petitioner shall create a storage area to the rear of the building for trailer, pallet and baled cardboard storage. The design of the storage area shall meet with City approval. 4. The landscaping and irrigation displaced by the above activities is to be relocated. ,� Mr. Oquist stated the second stipulation does not permit products on the front sidewalk. Does this also affect the mini-donut sales? � PLANNINa COMMI88ION MEBTING. OCTOBER 5. 1994 PAGE 3 Ms. McPherson stated the owners for the donut sales have a special use permit for that purpose. Wal-Mart cannot display the merchandise they sell, such as swingsets, patio furniture, etc. Mr. Saba asked if they could apply for a special use permit for sidewalk display. Ms. McPherson stated they cannot. Mr. Newman asked when this would go before the City Council. Ms. McPherson stated the Council would review the request on October 17, so the resolution which would come on October 13 would be forwarded to the City Council. Mr. Newman stated the meeting with Mr. Herd on October 13 should solve the issue of the storage area. Ms. McPherson stated this was correct. Mr. Sielaff asked when this becomes an enforcement issue. Ms. McPherson stated the City issued in 1994 a one-year special �''�, use permit to allow a garden center in the parking lot in lieu of them coming up with a proposed expansion plan. So, there is not an enforcement issue. Mr. Woodley, Store Manager, stated he met with staff. What they are talking about is reasonable. Regarding the display of merchandise on the sidewalk, are sidewalk sales part of that stipulation? Ms. McPherson stated she believed the City has allowed sidewalk sales as long as they are not a continuing, on-going practice. MOTION by Mr. Saba, seconded by Mr. Kondrick, to approve Special Use Permit, SP #94-14, by Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. to allow the expansion of an existing garden center on Lo� 1, Block 1, Wal- Mart in Fridley, the same being 8450 University Avenue N.E., with the following stipulations: 1. No garden sales shall occur in the parking lot as conducted in 1994. 2. The petitioner shall not be permitted to display products on the front sidewalk. 3. The petitioner shall create a storage area to the rear of �..., the building for trailer, pallet and baled cardboard storage. The design of the storage area shall meet with City approval. � PI�ANNING COMMIBSION MEETING OCTOBER 5, 199� PAGE 4 4. The landscaping and irrigation displaced by the above activities is to be relocated. IIPON A VOICE VOTB, ALL VOTINa AYE, CHAIRPERBON NEWMAN DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY. 2. PUBLIC HEARING: CONSIDERATION OF A SPECIAL USE PERMIT SP �94-15, BY LYATN PORATH OF TURNING POINT ADULT DAY CARE INC.: Per Section 205.09.01.(3) of the Fridley City Code, to allow day care centers, on Lots 1 and 2, Block 2, Moore Lake Highlands 4th Addition, generally located at 6180 Highway 65 N.E. MOTION by Mr. Oquist, seconded by Ms. Modig, to waive the reading of the public hearing notice and to open the public hearing. IIPON A VOICE VOTE� ALL VOTING AYE� CBAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED AND THE PIIBLIC HEARING OPEN AT 7:40 P.M. Mr. Hickok stated the request is for a special use permit for an adult day care center at St. Philip's Lutheran Church. The seven-acre site is located in the southwest quadrant of West '`~, Moore Lake Drive and Highway 65. The property is zoned R-3, General Multiple Dwelling, and there is R-1, Single Family, �o the west and C-3, General Shopping, to the north and east. The code requires a special use permit for day care facilities whether it is day care for adults or children. It is appropriate as long as the facility is on the arterial transportation route and has the appropriate parking and other site conditions. This is located on Highway 65 and fits the criteria for a special use permit. Mr. Hickok stated the building was constructed in 1959 and expanded later in 1964 and again in 1965. The building does have a child care area which was established in 1962. At that time, a special use permit was not required for child care activities and the church has been successful with this activity since that time. Mr. Hickok stated the current request is for an adult day care to be located in another part of the facility. The total square footage for the adult facility is approximately 6,000 square feet and the area for child care is smaller. The areas are separated physically within the building. Both areas have supervision which will control the mixture of child activities and adult activities. � Mr. Hickok stated staff has the potential impacts to be the existing complex. There reviewed the site and has reviewed created by an adult facility within are 242 parking spaces with 10 � PLANNING COMMIBSION MEETING. OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 5 handicap spaces. Staff feels this is appropriate based on the activities within the church. Mr. Hickok stated staff recommends approval of the request with the following stipulation: 1. Any additional signage shall comply with the stipulations of the 1993 variance approval and the sign code. Mr. Hickok stated, in 1993, a variance was granted to allow 70 square feet for two years and would then revert back to the standard 40 square feet allowed for the church. At the end of that period, they could come forward and ask for another variance or revert back. That is the only issue staff sees with the site as proposed. The petitioner has indicated that the adult care facility may use a banner as an introduction to the use, but they would discuss other types of signage with the church and they understand they would have to comply with the sign code. Mr. Oquist asked if this would be a five-day operation. Mr. Hickok stated yes. The hours are proposed to be 8:00 a.m.- 3:30 p.m., Monday through Friday. This does not include weekends 1��, and holidays. Mr. Kondrick asked how many adults are expected to be at the facility. Mr. Hickok stated the capacity as set by the petitioner is 40 adults. Both the child care and adult care areas are required through the Department of Human Services to be licensed. The adult care area has applied and the State has indicated they will proceed with the license once they have approval from the City that this is appropriate for the site. Mr. Sielaff asked for clarification that the church has a variance for the existing sign and this will revert back. Mr. Hickok stated this was correct. There is a permanent sign in place for St. Philip's. In 1993, they asked for a variance to add a temporary sign of painted plywood that has additional information about the church and its services. It was with the understanding that this plywood sign would come down after two years and the church would seek a permanent solution with the allowable 40 square feet. Mr. Saba asked if a private party or the church will be running the center. � Mr. Hickok stated a private for-profit organization that would be leasing the space. � PLANNIN� COMMI88ION MEETING. OCT�SER 5. 1994 PAGE 6 Ms. Porath stated the facility is for adult day care for anyone over 18 years of age including seniors. This is a new avenue for adults, seniors, and handicapped persons. There are a number of adult day care centers in the Twin Cities area. The facility most like this is the Salvation Army adult day care center in Maplewood. Their clients would have a separate entrance from the child care area. Most clients arrive by Metro Mobility. They have asked for a maximum of 40 clients. Mr. Kondrick asked how many children are in the facility. Ms. Porath did not know. Their clients include anyone over 18 who fits as a wlnerable adult. They would take anyone that fits the regulations that the state would allow. All clients come voluntarily. The center will have a rehab segment. They want people to stay independent and in their homes. Ms. Modig asked if the facility will have accommodations for those people who need drop-off services. Ms. Porath stated the state does not allow a drop-off center but they would like to do that. The clients must have a physician's approval to come to the center. �, Mr. Newman asked for background on the experience of the corporation. Ms. Porath stated the personnel are all medical personnel with rehab and geriatric backgrounds. All staff have nursing backgrounds. Mr. Saba asked the maximum number of clients they would have. Ms. Porath stated they have asked for 40 in that space. They must have approximately 40 square feet per person so they could have more, but they would like to have 40. There will be one staff person for every five individuals for those individuals, for example, who would not know what to do in case of fire or do not have the skills to get out of the way. Otherwise, the state requires one staff person for every eight individuals. They have eight staff now for 40 clients. Mr. ATewman asked if 40 was set by the license. Ms. Porath stated they have asked for 40 clients. The state allows more and we can increase that number through re-licensingo Mr. Newman asked if they would need to come back for another special use permit if they increased the number of clients. Mr. Hickok stated they would not need to come back. r'°'� ,� PLANNINQ CONIIdiI88ION MEETING. OCTOB�R 5, 1994 PAGE 7 Ms. Modig asked, under the square footage, what is the maximum number of clients. Ms. Porath stated they have skilled people for 40 and that is all they would every want to take. Ms. Modig expressed concern that this could change in the future. Mr. Hickok stated the Commission can add a stipulation that the special use permit be reviewed at the time they would go to the state for more than 40 clients. MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Sielaff, to close the public hearing. IIPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED AND THE PIIBLIC HEARING CL03ED AT 7:55 P.M. Mr. Saba stated he had no problem with the request except to recommend a review period. Mr. Kondrick asked if this would be a general review or a review when the numbers change. Mr. Saba stated both. This is new in terms of use of that facility. It sounds like this is a good use of the facility, but we wants to make sure that we are getting into something that we are not aware. He would recommend reviewing in one year to one and a half years. Mr. Newman stated his concern is that they have met the requirements of the special use permit and state requirements. As long as they are not in violation of state requirements, he was not sure that the City could review anywaya Ms. Modig stated the City cannot review if they are in compliance and doing what they have asked to do. Mr. Saba stated he is concerned about the level of illness or disability of the people under care. Ms. Modig stated this is similar to a halfway facility. The personnel are nurses and licensed. She did not see how we can regulate or look at. She is concerned about the numbers and personnel. The state dictates one staff for 5 clients. If we allow a special use permit, then we must rely on the state to police. She did not know that the City could. Mr. Newman agreed with the concern. is through the state. He suspects the best avenue .-y� PLANNINQ COI�iIBSION MEETING OCTOBER 5. 1994 PAGE 8 Mr. Kondrick recommended adding a stipulation that would refer to the number of clients that occupy the space in the facility. Mr. Oquist agreed that, when going back to re-license for additional people, it should be controlled by the state. Ms. Modig stated she had no problem with the request other than the number of patients. She would like to have feedback on numbers in the future or when they go back for re-licensing for additional clients. Mr. Kondrick asked, with the rules we have, can they have more people there or is 40 the maximum number. Ms. McPherson stated the petitioner indicated they need 40 square feet per person including staff. They will utilize 6,000 square feet. The state would look at and say they can have x number of people. As Mr. Hickok indicated, a stipulation could be included that says once they re-license for over 40, they need to come back to the City who must re-issue a special use permit to increase the number. Mr. Hickok stated the Commission's recommendation and Council �'`� approval indicates the zoning is appropriate and they have been given a special use permit. What would trigger that is if we say that number changes, then we call it back for review. MOTION by Mr. Oquist, seconded by Mr. Kondrick, to approve Special Use Permit, SP #94-15, by Lynn Porath of Turning Point Adult Day Care, Inc., to allow day care centers, on Lots 1 and 2, Block 2, Moore Lake Highlands 4th Addition, generally located at 6180 Highway 65 N.E., with the following stipulationst 1. Any additional signage shall comply with the stipulations of the 1993 variance approval and the sign code. 2. At which time the applicant makes license application to the State to serve more than 40 clients, the Special Use Permit shall be subject to review by the City. IIPON A VOIC$ VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CBAIRPERSON NEWMAN D�CLAR�D THE MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY. Ms. McPherson stated this item would be reviewed by the City Council at their meeting of October 17. 3. CONSIDERATION OF RE-USE OF THE 10 000 AUTO PARTS BUILDING BY THE GYM. GENERALLY LOCATED AT 6525 UNIVERSITY AVENUE N E. � Ms. Dac stated the re Y quest is a two part request. The first is to occupy a building located in an S-2 Redevelopment District on i-�., PLANNINa COMMI88ION I+�EETIN�. OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 9 a temporary basis. The second is to determine the City�s position to include this use in the approved redevelopment plane Ms. Dacy stated the intent of the S-2 district gives broad discretion to the Housing and Redevelopment Authority (HRA) and the City and also sets up a process to make that deternainatione Ms. Dacy stated the subject parcel is located on the northeast corner of Mississippi and University. Four years ago, the City Council approved rezoning to S-2 with stipulations for a developer to construct a retail strip mall. The 25,000 square foot mall had 144 parking spaces proposed. The original developer did not pursue the plan. The current developer does have option agreements on the two single family homes adjacent to the east and a verbal agreement with the owner of the building on the subject parcel. Ms. Dacy stated the petitioner, Mr. Jim Yungner, is the owner of The Gym, which is a personal training center. Mr. Yungner wants to move his operation from 261 Commerce Circle to this location for a period of up to three years. As part of the request to move his business, the petitioner has indicated he is going to make approximately $30,000-$40,000 worth of investment in carpet, /� rest rooms, locker rooms, etc. He also wants to paint the outside of the building and put a sign on the front of the building. Ms. Dacy stated the survey from 1965 was included with the agenda. The building is about 14,000 square feet and shows approximately 89 parking spaces. The parking lot would need to be re-striped, the pavement repaired, and weeds cut. Ms. Dacy stated the first request is to consider temporary occupancy of the building. Staff have been working with the owner on the type of uses occurring within the building. This is the first tenant that wants to pursue a longer term occupancy. Because of the three-year plan and our redevelopment goals, staff has brought this to your attention. The nature of the use is compatible with the neighborhood. This use takes place inside. The peak hours are when clients use the site usually after working hours. The impact is not as intrusive as other uses. Ms. Dacy stated the second request is whether the use is consistent with the long term redevelopment plan. Because the nature of the use is not a typical retail use, the use is quite compatible and less intrusive. On the other hand, the petitioner wants to make this location permanent beyond three years. We are in the middle of the southwest quadrant redevelopment. The �.,, market may dictate new interest in retail shops. There may be new opportunities the City may want to evaluate. The purpose of this part of the request is to provide an opportunity for the HRA , r�, �, PLANNIN� COMMI88ION MEETINd. OCTOBER 5. 1994 PAGE 10 and Council to provide feedback to the petitioner as to whether this would be a good use on the property. Ms. Dacy stated there may be a parking issue depending on the amount of space they are going to occupy. Having a smaller area of the building may work. If they use up to half of the building, they may need more parking. It depends on the balance of uses. On one hand, it is a good use because it is internal and it is compatible. On the other hand, we don't know what the marke.t would produce if we are successful on the opposite cornere Ms. Dacy stated staff recommends approval on a temporary basis would be appropriate. It would improve the appearance of the building and would be compatible with the surrounding neighborhood. Staff recommends the following stipulations: 1. The petitioner shall apply for the appropriate building, plumbing, and mechanical permits to complete remodeling as proposed. 2. The petitioner shall stripe the parking lot; parking stalls are 10 feet wide and 20 feet long,, or 18 feet long if the staff abuts a curb stop or landscaped area. 3. C� The dumpster shall be screened on all sides. The parking lot shall be kept free of weeds and grass. 5. Landscaped area to the north shall be kept trimmed in an attractive manner to provide screening from the residences to the north. 6. Inclusion of the proposed use in the Fridley Town Square redevelopment project shall be reviewed by the City Council and Housing and Redevelopment Authority prior to execution/ approval of the development contract for the project. Mr. Newman asked, if they can took action on the first request and not the second, could the petitioner take occupancy. Ms. Dacy stated yes. The intent of the second request is because the use was not intended. If there are strong feelings against the request, we should let the petitioner know now. Mr. Newman stated stipulation #6 he suspects the Planning Commission may have concerns that this use would work with the rest of the uses in relationship to parking. Is it appropriate to come back to the Planning Commission as well as the HRA and ,�, Council? � PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING. OCTOHER 5. 1994 PAGE 11 Ms. Dacy stated yes, the Planning Commission should be looking at parking issues. Mr. Newman stated there was an access road to the north to 68th. Under this proposal, is that access road still there. Ms. Dacy stated the pavement is still there but it is blocked by concrete bumpers. She felt those should be kept in place. Mr. Yungner stated this gives them three years to see if the use is appropriate. Mr. Newman asked if he was comfortable that the Commission not take action until we see where the redevelopment plan in going. Mr. Yungner stated yes. Mr. Kondrick asked the hours of operation for the business. Mr. Yungner stated their hours are 5:00 a.m. to midnight during the week and 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. on weekends. Mr. Saba asked if there were any problems with parking where they �, are now. Mr. Yungner stated they had none. Ms. Modig stated the plans were to repaint the exterior on three sides. Why not the east side? Mr. Yungner stated that side will not be seen. He is trying to go in without spending a lot. Their clientele are different from the other health clubs in the area. Mr. Kondrick asked if Mr. Yungner had read the stipulations. Mr. Yungner stated he understood the stipulations and had no problems with them. Mr. Newman asked Ms. Dacy if we run the risk of incurring relocation expenses if we discontinue this use in the final project. Ms. Dacy stated there are some financial issues. One issue is that whoever steps in to the redevelopment, and if they want to pursue this in one year, would have to deal with the gym and the lease. Another issue is the amount of improvements being put into the building. Although it is not significant, there could � be an acquisition impact. Based on what is being proposed, she did not think it would be significant. ;^�,� PLANNINd COMMI88ION MEETING. OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAaE 12 Mr. Newman asked if this request would go to the HRA. Ms. Dacy stated yes. Mr. Newman stated he thought this would be better than a vacant building. Mr. Kondrick stated he knew there were not a lot of cars at the business at any one time. What does he expect in terms of traffic at peak times.? Mr. Yungner stated at 5:00 a.m.-6:30 a.m. there are 15-30 cars. Throughout the day, they have from 10-35 cars. In the evening, they have 30-55 cars and less after 9:00 p.m. Mr. Kondrick stated he had no problem �ith the request. It is a good business and a quiet business. OTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Oquist, to recommend approval of occupancy of the building at 6525 University Avenue N.E. for The Gym on a temporary basis subject to the following stipulations: /`'� 1. The petitioner shall apply for the appropriate building, plumbing, and mechanical permits to complete remodeling as proposed. 2. The petitioner shall stripe the parking lot; parking stalls are 10 feet wide and 20 feet long, or 18 feet long if the stall abuts a curb stop or landscaped area. 3. The dumpster shall be screened on all sides. 4. The parking lot shall be kept free of weeds and grass. 5. Landscaped area to the north shall be kept trimmed in an attractive manner to provide screening from the residences to the north. 6. Inclusion of the proposed use in the Fridley Town Square redevelopment project shall be reviewed by the City Council, Housing and Redevelopment Authority and Planning Commission prior to execution/ approval of the development contract for the project. IIPON A VOICE VOTE� ALL VOTING AYE� CHAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY. Ms. Dacy stated this item would be reviewed by the City Council at their meeting of October 17. r--` PLANNING COMMI88ION MEETING, OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 13 4. RECEIVE THE MINUTES OF THE HUMAN RESOURCES COMMISSION MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 8. 1994 MOTION by Mr. Oquist, seconded by Mr. Sielaff, to receive the Human Resources Commission minutes of September 8, 1994. IIPON A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CHAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY. 5. RECEIVE THE MINUTES OF THE HOUSING & REDEVELOPMENT AUTHORITY MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 6. 1994 MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Ms. Modig, to receive the Housing Redevelopment Authority minutes of September 6, 1994. IIPOAT A VOICE VOTE, ALL VOTING AYE, CBAIRPERSON NEWMAN DECLARED T8E MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY. 6. RECEIVE THE MINUTES OF THE PARKS & RECREATION COMMISSION MEETING OF SEPTEMBER 12 1994 MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Saba, to receive the Parks & Recreation Commission minutes of September 12, 1994. �'�`� IIPON A VOICE VOTL, ALL VOTIN(�i AYE, CHAIRPERBON NEWMAN DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED IINANIMOIISLY. 7. Continue Review of Design Guidelines for Southwest Quadrant Mr. Gair stated it is the responsibility of this commission to facilitate redevelopment by forming a set of guidelines and not to get pre-occupied with a specific plan or specific architecture. This is a complex and difficult undertaking. He suggested members view the plans being presented as if they were an owner/occupant of one of these homes. Ms. O'Connell will make a presentation for the site plan. It is important to focus on features such as open space, orientation, buffering spaces, etc. Prior to the meeting, he went to the property to see it at night. He looked in all directions, listened to traffic, and imagined the area with homes. Although the Commission may not have the same feelings, he asked they try to keep daytime and nighttime visual and sound in mind to make the most habitable environment. Ms. O'Connell stated, at the last meeting, the favorable comments were with Plans B and C and those are the plans that have been developed. At the last meeting, they did not have available the site improvement along Mississippi. The site is therefore smaller. They met with staff and set guidelines for 3rd Street as a through street. There is a 60-foot right-of-way and a 60 degree curve. They have also added a detention pond. The Commission indicated they liked using 3rd Street as a transition. �-1 PLANNING COM�lI88ION MEETING. OCTOBER 5. 199� PAGE 1� The density has been reduced using the recommendation of 1/3 single level and 2/3 multi level. Ms. O'Connell presented two plans - B which is organized around a pedestrian use, and C which is organized around village greense The difference in housing is that C has a row house style that faces a village green. The green is 62 feet across and the backs of the units are 40 feet-45 feet apart. B has car entry ports. Where the units face each other is closer and the back yards have 65 feet between units. B has the view directed to the rear. An open space dissects the site and breaks it down into spaces. Pedestrians travel along the sides of the homes for the most part and connects with future and existinq trails within the city. C focuses on open space which is the village green and is something people view and walk around. There is less open space in the back. Pedestrians travelling within the site have a different experience. On B, the meeting is by chance on the trails. The homes do not have direct views onto the trail. Plan C has a pedestrian and auto mix which is a more formal experience. Pedestrians walk along the houses and around the green. Plan C has a frontage road that intersects with 3rd Street, travels � along Mississippi and connects with Satellite. In addition, , there are one-way loops that define the individual neighborhoods. Plan B also has a road that runs into 3rd and traffic joins that road or opens directly onto third. ,� Ms. O'Connell reviewed cross section drawings of both plans. Plan C would have a five foot boulevard next to Mississippi, a five foot sidewalk, and then a small berm with plantings. Access to the garages would be from the frontage road. The back yards for these units open onto the village green. On University, the existing service road is kept with perhaps small plantings between University and the service road. Single level units would open onto the frontage road. Density of this plan is 80. Ms. O'Connell stated Plan B has similar space along Mississippi but there is more space along University Avenue with a berm and vegetation. Density of Plan B is 76. Mr. Hargans stated they have done a development where the street does not need to be one-way around the village green. Part of the thinking for the garages facing out is to act as a buffer. The intent is to blunt the severe effect with the garage. It can be enhanced with other features to soften. Along Mississippi, the units have the parking below and it is the closed side of the building. Mr. Saba asked if they were planning to put in mature trees. Ms. O'Connell stated that depends on the cost. Typical planting � ,�"'� �� PLANNINQ COMMI88ION 1eIEETING. OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 15 size is 2.5 to 3 inches which �transplants well. The bigger the tree, the more costly. Mr. Saba asked if they would be using a mix of deciduous and evergreens. Ms. O'Connell stated there would be both. Evergreens go well for screening. Mr. Newman asked if, in Plan C, there was enough room along University for mature trees. Ms. O�Connell stated this does not need a lot of greenery. The front of the unit is the entrance and the view is to the rear. Plan B has a different effect. There can be a combination. Mr. Kondrick stated the garages may act as a sound barrier, but in terms of marketability, he is worried about the noise from University compared to greenery on the other plan. Mr. Hargans stated the space does not help with sound. It is more of a visual thing as far as sound. If you cannot see, the sense is that is screened. Mr. Kondrick stated, in terms of market, would the units facing University on Plan B be as marketable as those facing University of Plan C. Mr. Hargans stated one may have a hard time saying B is your space. Mr. Newman stated Plan C shows a sidewalk system. Ms. O'Connell stated there is a connection that leads out to the bus stop. Ms. O'Connell stated Plan B along Mississippi has a 5 foot boulevard, 5 foot sidewalk, and then a berm that is 6 feet high and about 40 feet in depth. This allows more plantings. The sides of the units would face the street. Cars and pedestrians would not be seen. On University, there is the combination of 9- foot berm and backyard open space before the single level units. There would 90 feet of open s�ace between the backs of the units with the pedestrian trail. Mr. Kondrick stated this plan with the 9-foot berm seems as if it would be a more effective sound barrier. Mr. Newman asked if they had considered snow storage on these plans. � PLANNING CO1�lISSION MEETING� OCTOBER 5. 1994 PAGB 16 Ms. O'Connell stated she thought there was opportunity along the lots for snow storage. Plan B would probably require snow to be moved out of the roadways. Plan C would have space on the village greens. There may be a problem on the frontage road. Mr. Oquist asked if the City would maintain the roadway. Ms. Dacy stated the City would maintain 3rd Street. The roadways in the complex would be private. Mr. Oquist asked, on Plan B, if there is an issue from an emergency standpoint with the walkway. Ms. O�Connell stated 150 feet maximum feet is the guideline. If there is a concern, a 16-foot width could be kept free of trees. Mr. Newman stated he has concerns about someone getting lost and needing a place to turn around. On Plan B, can an effective job be done with signs. Mr. Gair stated he thought there would be mailboxes or identifying monuments at the primary roads. %'"� Mr. Newman stated it would be good to do that to reduce the number of people entering errantly. Mr. Gair stated 3rd Street will be a through street. Another concern is visitors. He didn't think there would be a problem in either of these two cases. Both are fairly regular in pattern. Once they enter a drive, it will become apparent there are six units per side. Mr. Kondrick stated they like to entertain which would mean extra vehicles. In these plans, where would there be room for eight to ten additional cars. Mr. Gair stated the road is 24 feet in width. One could park along one side. They can also provide space per unit for guest parking. Other communities provide parking allowed for every unit which would be two interior spaces and four exterior spaces, and 0.5 spaces per unit for guests. It works well to provide for on site but he would not construct this until the need is determined. Unfortunately for home owners association, they will need to regulate and monitor. He would strongly encourage the City to plan for 0.5 per unit but not build it right away. Mr. Kondrick asked if a future buyer would see this at the time of purchase, � Ms. O'Connell stated there are opportunities to provide parking which are not shown here. � PLANNING CONIIdII88ION MEETING, OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 17 Mr. Carlson stated each unit has two indoor spaces and two outdoor spaces. Guests can also parallel park on Plan C along the village greens. Mr. Gair stated another option is to handle overflow parking on 3rd Street. The City of Plymouth has regulated that spaces in front of garages cannot be counted. There becomes much parking in that case. Mr. Kondrick asked if people are attracted to that going in. Mr. Newman stated he thought most people that do that will not live in townhomes. Ms. O'Connell stated staff had requested that they also look at a 40-unit age regulated condo. As previous discussed, this would be 3-4 stories in height. Mr. Hargans stated this is something to think about because there are concerns about row houses and density. Putting in such a unit frees up the rest of the site. It can be placed in the corner of Mississippi and University and the elevator could be used for a future covered crossing. �, Mr. Carlson stated 40 units could fit tightly into the corner next to the frontage road. Mr. Oquist asked where the City was with the apartment buildings. Ms. Dacy stated this would be discussed on October 24. Mr. Oquist stated one consideration might be to acquire the apartment buildings, remodeling and this could become the senior area and could act as the buffer to the other neighborhood. Mr. Newman stated Plan C has more units than Plan B. If the units to the west be taken out, the rest could be adjusted to the west in order to address the concerns about University. Mr. Saba stated he liked Plan B. It has a residential effect, the walkway separation, and separation from the neighborhood. He liked the general layout. It seems more like a neighborhood. Plan C has some nice elements but it has too much of a project look. He liked the village greens and the one way streets. He liked the idea of the apartment access to a crosswalk over University. He would like to see better access to that elevator. Overall he would choose Plan B. It is more of a neighborhood than a development. P1an C seems more rigid. If a senior plan ^ is included, he would prefer to see it where the apartments are now. On these two plans, he likes the idea of a pedestrian cross walk. If the building must be put in, the corner is okay but he �\ PLANNING COMMISBION MEETINa. OCTOBER 5. 1994 PAGE 18 would prefer not to have it. Mr. Oquist stated he did not see the need for senior housing unless it is where the apartments are now. He liked Plan B. It gives the feel of a lot of green space and a lot of open area. His son lived in a community in Denver which had the walkway concept which was very nice. Plan C is too geometric and too neat. He liked the village greens and the mall effect but there is also some of that on the other plan. B has better buffering. He would like to see something done with the apartments. There needs to be a buffer to the rest of community. As long as they are going this far, he would green up also. Mr. Kondrick asked if there could be more places for water in the complex such as ponds in the larger open areas. Ms. O�Connell stated this may be a problem. With water, there become requirements with the level of the homes in relation to the water level. Mr. Kondrick stated he preferred Plan B. He liked the topography with the berms, open spaces, and the number of trees. The exterior can be changed and can have a tremendous impact. He ''1 likes the green areas, the walking path, and the driveways. There is a parking problem on both plans. He would prefer to see the apartments gone. If we have to live with them and cannot make them into senior housing, he would be in favor of the 40 unit building in Plan B. He thought a senior area where the apartments are would be a good location. Ms. Modig stated she liked Plan B with its green spaces. She is concerned about parking and accessibility for emergency vehicles. She liked the berming and thought it would protect the residents from the noise from University and Mississippi and would be more attractive. With Plan C, she has a problem with the University side because she would not want to look at garages. Plan B has, even though all are row houses, doesn't look so much so. She would like to see a senior building. She would like to see the apartments gone. She does not want to see them remodeled. She didn't think this would produce a quality area. She would prefer to see a new building with a combination of rental and condos. She would like to see something on the corner with accessibility to rapid transit. If using an elevator, it could be accessible to those also living in the community. She would also like to see more water, but it is not a big thing. Mr. Kondrick asked if eliminating the apartments would cause any design difficulties with either plan. � Ms. O'Connell stated no. This area could fit well into either design. ,.�� PLANNINa COMMI88ION MEETINa, OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 19 Mr. Sielaff stated he has a bias for green spaces and minimal hard surface so he prefers Plan B. Personally, he didn't think this was a place for a highrise. It would be out of scale to what this would be. If there needs to be senior housing, in need to be in scale with what is in the development. There is a problem with snow removal and snow storage. Mr. Newman stated he likes on Plan B the set backs from the roadways, the screening, the berms, and the walkway. The car courts create a claustrophic effect. There seems to be more hard surface area. He likes the village greens on C. Depending on the architecture, they could duplicate that on B. He has seen complexes such as B elsewhere. Plan C is distinctive and set off from other conununities. From the standpoint of parking, snow removal and getting lost, the traffic flow is easier on C. Mr. Kondrick stated it was of interest that people would be walking around that area. If going by the drawings, it does not indicate that. Most garages have access off the drive. The fronts of the houses will face the green areas and will not have a promenade. Mr. Newman stated, if in fact the village greens are on the !"1 garage side and will not be seen by the residents living there, it makes more sense to go with B where the focus is on the green space. He thought the units wauld have a tuck-under garage and living above and have green space on both sides. B has green space only on the back and not in the front. Concerning the highrise, his first reaction is that they have done a great job of coming up with an overall design but he would want to see an overall layout first. The southeast corner seemed more appropriate and set off from the rest. He does not feel strongly about senior housing. Single level living appeals to empty nesters. Economics may dictate that. �. Mr. Saba stated it does not make sense to mess up the development for density. Mr. Newman stated senior housing may create the economies for the green spaces in that area. He thought it would be needed if the apartments are taken out. Mr. Hargans stated the architects have been working closely with the site planners which is the first part of this project. Now we are getting into the architecture. He would like reaction based on those things the Commission wants to see. For guidelines, we need to come to the best option and include those aspects that you like the best. Handling water on the site is an issue. The roof forms must respond handle water. The sense of identity is also a consideration. How much do you want to accentuate the individual unit? There is a piece that talks �\ i"'�1 n PLANNING COMMIBSION MEETING, OCTOBER 5. 1994 PAGE 20 about accessories. Another issue is green space and also usable green space. How much is usable? Green space will be used for buffers. We must also think about land use. Mr. Hargans presented a variety of forms from simple to more complex. This can be the extent to which to suggest a style. What kind of character do you want the area to have? In Fridley, most of the housing has low roofs, broad overhangs and a horizontal type of facade. Two-thirds of the units are two- story. How are you going to get that effect with a two-story unit? The designs start as very simple to more complicated design. As the design gets more complicated, it also gets more expensive. Sometimes the details can add a touch of character and they will price these at a certain point in the process in order to know the costs. The colonial revival style has a few more details. Again, the same style can be enhanced with dormers, bays, etc. There is quite a height to the units. There are also some developments that have rooftop terraces as extra space on a small site. This is also going in next to other flat roofed buildings. Again, the designs can range from simple to more complicated. Mr. Saba asked how feasible a flat roof is for snow in the winter time. Mr. Hargans felt the flat roof would have no problems. Mr. Newman stated he had built some of those home and have had some problems with the flat roofs. But, most commercial buildings have flat roofs and they work. Mr. Hargans stated they needed to know what elements need to be included. He asked for comments regarding roof design. Mr. Kondrick stated he thought people in this area would prefer a colonial design. He likes the idea of a look such as Georgetown Apartments because each unit is unique. He liked the idea of a rooftop terrace. Mr. Oquist stated he had reservations about it. It looks like a trendy thing. It is nice the first summer. The second summer it would not be used as much. The third year, it is not as big of deal and he thought the appeal would go away. Mr. Sielaff stated he did not like the flat roof because it gives the feel of an urban environment. He wants to emphasize green space and this does not go with green space. Mr. Hargans stated he thought this type of building could hold its own on a corner with other flat roof buildings in the area. The area has to be transitional. This must be part of the urban �, ,� � PLANNING CO1�lI8SION MEETING� OCTOBER 5. 1994 PAGE 21 fabric and still work as housing. Is it going to detract by being traditional? This is a busy intersection. Mr. Kondrick stated a rooftop terrace has walls that can be decorated and/or landscaped. The owners can plant trees. It is like another space that is their own that others do not know is there. Mr. Oquist stated, if you create another space on the roof with depth, it then becomes 3 1/2 stories. He is concerned about the height. We want to create something to bring the height down with the appearance. Mr. Newman stated the terrace creates a private space. Mr. Carlson stated the flat roof buildings would have a lower profile. The other units are higher by the height of the roof. Ms. Modig stated she liked the rooftop terrace because if provides more green space. She is concerned that with a flat roof the view of the Holly Center and the roofs of the houses around it will not be an attractive view. They would not be able to see the Mississippi River. Mr. Kondrick asked, in terms of cost, is a porch more expensive to create. Mr. Hargans stated the cost is about the same. It is hard to equate. You must decide how many of those pieces you can afford. Mr. Oquist agreed that one would not be able to see the river from this location. The river is down and there are buildings between this area and the river. Mr. Sielaff stated a flat roof is a straight line. There is nothing more unnatural than a straight line. Mr. Carlson asked for comments about the garages. All have the garages under. It is more expensive to have the garage on the side. It is more attractive to have the garage at ground level. Mr. Oquist stated he would prefer to see the garages along side to bring the height down but he was not sure if this could be done and keep the density. Mr. Hargans stated, with this density, by getting above there is also a public space to look at. This brings up a good point about the height. The area may need a mixturee Mr. Oquist stated the garages and entries are symmetrical. The garages are on the left and the entry on the right. He � PLANNING _COI�+iIBBION MLETING. OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 22 recommended alternating the design to break it up. Mr. Newman stated he likes the garages with individual doors. He also preferred the garage openings with the angled corners. Ms. Modig stated, with the garages on the lower level, the floors are colder in the upstairs unless there is good insulation. Mr. Saba stated he also likes the individual doors with the angles. Mr. Carlson asked for comments about the materials. Mr. Saba stated they had talked at the last meeting about some kind of entry. If we could come up with something appealing, we continue that theme with the housing. Mr. Hargans stated this is a good idea and they have talked about requesting a developer to have that as part of the system, but he thought they should bring that next time. Mr. Kondrick felt the more brick there is, the more others will like it. Brick means stability, warmth, class, etc. � Mr. Hargans stated brick also corresponds to the brick on the other buildings in the area. Mr. Newman thought the materials used would depend on the style of architecture. Ms. Dacy asked, regarding the gauge of the aluminum siding, should this be an issue that we should give direction to the developer. Mr. Newman stated the siding should not be vinyl whether or not seamless is used. A lot of people don't like steel or aluminum siding. In 15 years, they want it to look sharp. Again, that depends on the architecture and, in some styles, it may not be appropriate. Mr. Oquist asked if brick would have a tendency to make these look massive. It is a harder look. You also cannot change the color. Periodically, owners may want to change the color and appearance of the community. Brick cannot be changed. Mr. Newman stated he did not know that stucco would fit either. Mr. Hargans stated stucco now comes in colors and costs are ^ similar to brick. The homeowners association usually has rules about painting and color. You can push a specific range or performance level. He did not know how much individuality can be � PLANNING_COMNlIBSION MEETING. OCTOBBR 5. 1994 PAGE 23 allowed. Mr. Newman stated the siding needs to be a durable material. The type depends on the architecture. Mr. Kondrick stated he would like to see some brick in the design. He also liked the concept of making the units look individual. Mr. Newman stated they could do this using different shades of brick. Mr. Sielaff stated he would prefer to see natural materials whether cedar or brick. Mr. Hargans asked if the Commission saw this as a departure from the current Fridley homes. The Commission consensus was that this should be different, unique and de�irable. Mr. Saba stated, because of the location, this needs something that will draw people into that area. ,� Mr. Newman stated, in looking at history, the feeling is that we want a signature development. He is comfortable doing so here. Mr. Kondrick stated the location is good. It has access to I- 694, downtown, close to shopping, and something should be built that would merit that location. Mr. Hargans stated signature needs to be reflected strongly in one or more ways. He is also hearing to concentrate on developing pieces that respond to these guidelines, and they can put some costs to them. Ms. O'Connell asked if there was a style of architecture that lends itself to taking a basic rectangle and attaching a piece here and there. Even though each unit is the same, you could add a bay or add some brick. Mr. Hargans stated he thought they could take the comments and sketch a style that could be an example of what you feel is appropriate. Mr. Newman stated he liked the different roof lines and the bay windows. They need a deck or something for people to get outside. He liked the roof lines broken up. He did not like the ^ rooftop terrace design or double garage doors. Mr. Kondrick stated he liked the colonial revival design. He did � PLANNING COMMI88ION MEETING. OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGg 2� not like all those garage doors. He would like two larger doors and would like that plan with the flat roof. Mr. Oquist stated he preferred the colonial revival design. He likes the low profile design. He cannot imagine windows coming out. He would like to see the entries staggered and the garage openings at an angle. He did not like the flat roof. The roof adds to the height but he did not know what else they could do. Mr. Saba stated he also liked the colonial revival. The garages could be dressed up. He liked the idea of decorating the front windows. There is a lot that could be done with that. Ms. Modig stated she liked the idea of a rooftop terrace. She liked the colonial revival at the high end. One could have a rooftop space and bay windows give a feeling of air and space. She liked the garage doors but alternating them with the entries so they are not so uniform. She does not like the idea of having different materials and colors. She did not think that was classy. Mr. Sielaff stated he preferred natural. Anything that enhances that feeling he would like to see. The colonial revival with ,� natural materials and a feeling of open space would enhance that type of feeling. It should be something unique. Mr. Oquist stated he wondered the kind of people that would be buying these units. Are they contemporary people? Are they looking for one style over another? Would they like more modern as far as a selling point? We have to take into consideration a style that is long lasting. A style may be trendy today, but it may not be what is selling in 10 years. He likes the idea that once we settle on a style, we can then settle on a material. Ms. Modig stated she found, when selling to�anhouses and condos, owners did not want to worry about outside maintenance. As long as the floor plans are workable and the outside maintenance is not a problem, they look at those things. They also ask about the level of noise and how thick are the walls. The noise level is a big thing. Privacy is also important. They want the outside to be attractive as long as they don't have to care of it. Ms. Dacy stated, from this meetings, she would summarize the comments and bring them to the HRA and City Council. Mr. Newman stated, on behalf of the Planning Commission, he would like to complement everyone. This has been fun. We must be very � careful that the developer needs to have flexibility in what they /'�� � PLANNINa COI�IIBSION MEETING. OCTOBER 5, 1994 PAGE 25 are going to do. They know the market. This Commission has given guidelines and has provided input. Staff will now talk to the developer to see what they can do and what we can afford. The final plan may be much different, but it hopefully will incorporate our ideas. Mr. Kondrick asked if the Planning Commission would have input into the covenants or restrictions on the property. Ms. Dacy stated that will be part of the review process when we know who will be developing the property. Staff will be meeting with the consultants. If we need to come back at the next meeting to confirm, they will do so. Mr. Newman stated there is a divergence of opinion and they will need to pick out what works. We need to provide direction and it is now staff's task to pull out from out input. He asked, if staff are going to bring this back, to bring it back in October. ADJOURNMENT MOTION by Mr. Kondrick, seconded by Mr. Sielaff, to adjourn the meeting. IIPON A VOICE VOTL, ALL VOTING AYE� CHAIRPERSON NEWM2fN DECLARED THE MOTION CARRIED AND THE OCTOBER 5, 1994, PLANNING COI�IISSION MEETINa ADJOIIRNED AT 10:38 P.M. Respectfully submitted, �C�-�I Lavonn Cooper Recording Secretary � ,� � S I G N— IN S H E E T PLANNING COMMISSION.MEETING, Wednesday, October 5, 1994 �