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PR 05/03/1976 - 31210�' � � � �. . . � �, . ,` : SPECIAL MEETING OF THE � � PARKS & RECREATION COMMISSIQN MAY 3, 1976 MEMBERS PRFSENT: Bob Peterson (arrived 9s1�}, Dave Harris, Leonard Moore, Jan Seeger, Harvey Wagar MII�IBERS ABSENT: Nor�s OTHERS PRESENT: Dan Huff, Acting Director, Parks & Recreation Department Janet Konzak, Admin, Asst, to �?ty Manager L. Vernon Moen, Board of Directors, Springbrook Nature Center Found. � . Clarence E. Krueger - 173 Pi1.ot Ave., N.E., Fridley Frank M. Pilarski - 137 Pilot Ave., N.E.; Fridley Shirley I�eMartin - 12lt Pilot Ave., N.E., Fridley Bob McMartin'- 12lt Pilot Ave., N.E., Fridley Kevin Drury - 12� Pilot Ave., N.E., Fridley Acting Chairman Harris reconvened the meetin� at 7:32 p.m. APPR4VAL OF AGEIVDA: Director Huff asked to have the following additions on the agenda: J. Tentative park plan for the Ashton-Mississippi Street area K. Discussion of the policy of drinking alcoholic bever.ages in the parks MOTION by Mr. Wagar, seconded by Mr. Moore, to approve the agenda with the additions of J a.nd K. Upon a voice vate, alI voting aye, the motion carried unanimously. ANALYSIS OF RECREATIONAL PROGRAMS: . . Janet Konzak was at the meeting to present information that xel�,ted to different recreational programs and activities, An analysis was done at the statf level which resulted`in the gathering of information on the major recreational p.rograms that are offered and a listi�g of what activities are currently self-supporting,' i partia3.ly funded by the city and fully funded• by the city. It includes a comparison � of recreational activities sponsored by other ci.ties that ean be used as a ' comparison-with the city of Fridley, and a beginning list of activities sponsored , by other agencie� and organizations in Fridley that also provide recreational i ectivities. �� Ms..Konzak passe@ out this i.nformation to each of the`Commission members, and told '��y them the purpose of her being at the meeting was to present this information to them for them to do with as they pleased. She explained they had taken the thirteen SPECIAL MEETING OF THE PARKS & RECREAT.IQN COMMISSIpN - MAY 3, 1976 - PAGE 2 major activities sponsored within Parks and Recreation ranging from softbalZ to concessions, and using the program budgeting mechanism available they had listed' the costs for supervision, officials; maintenance, equipment, etc., and a total cost figure. She emphasized that thes e wers not exact costs down to the penny, but the study was done in the sarrte way for each of the thirteen areas that were looked at, sa the costs were relative. She said that the.total cost figure was looked at in terms of the number of teams or participants to get an idea of the fees that are paid, the net cost to ths city, the cost of each participant to be in the program, the hours they were in the program and the cost per hour. 2�Is. Konzak further explained that,from that information they could see that the costs range.from 7¢ an hour to 81�¢ an hour per person, excluding maintenance. Ms. Konzak explained the second section looked at those areas in terms of different funding requirements. These were broken down into three groups: 1. No funding required (self-supporting activities) 2. Partial funding required 3. �Il funding required She iurther explained that the next part of the study was a comparison of recreational activities with other cities. She stated that the eight other cities were chosen because their amount of staff, their population, their number of dwelling units, etc., average extremely close to the City of Fridley. She stated it was broken down by organized activities, individual activities, and recreational/cultural activities, and that all of these cities that were used hane a communit� schools or community educational program so they are providing activities other than thase Iisted in the report. Ms. Konzak stated the final sheet was a comparison of recreational activities sponsored far the citizens of Fridley by. the city, school programs, community school programs and others. She said she had ad3ed some X's to indicate the possibility of over2apping activities. Mr. 1nTagar-voiced his concern on not seeing �ny activities for the elderly, and Ms. Konzak replied that Anoka-Ramsey Community College did have programs provided for the senior. citizens. Director Hufi added that one of the problems was that some of the programs didn�t Iike to be identified specifically as being for the e2derly, but would rather have the vast majority of all the other activities so tailored that they would be able to participate. Mr. Harris noted that ski trips appeared under both City of Fxidley and School Programs, but since it was self-supporting and full,y funded he felt that although it may be a duplication there was no conilict, ke stated that in relationship to some of the others such as football, basketball, softball, and items listed as Major Recreationa3 Ac�ivities, the discussions previously with the schools indicated to him that these are not duplications but were serving a different . group of�people and different age areas. � �ls: Konzak said she had just talked with the school representative last week� and softball starts in 7th �'�� witt� intraimirals, and in grades 8 through 12 start intermurals. Mr. Wagar stated that unless they had changec�, the boys only participated in football abou� two days of th� week, and then two days in another sport. He said that a child`could not:p3ay solely football. • � �� I - 5PECIAL MEETING OF THE PARKS & R�CREATIOAi COMMISSZON - MAY 3� 2976 - PAGE 3 � � _ _ ^ �; Mr. Harris.sta�ed tha� intramural was �nore-educational than campetitive, and '.. that in some cases the duplicate X's were not necessarily duplicates. He added that he was sure there were some areas that may be similar, but those that were i invoZved in FYSA were not competing witfi schaols. � Mr. Moore stated that his vi.ews were a little different as he felt the schools did a prQtty good job with physical activities, but there are other activities not eovered, such as for the elderiy. He continued that if there wasn't enouph money to go around, then those duplicates should be drawn out a bit. He said he was looking at net costs of $71,000 for hockey� $7,OOfl for baseball and �;5,000 � ' for softball. . � Mr. Harris stated that Mr. Moore indicated the hoc�key program has a high ratio ( . per hour cost, but the ten full-time people involved belong to the maintenance program on a continuing basis. He stated.in the summer they take care of the playgrounds, soft:�all fieias, etc. Directar Huff explained th�.t if they di�n't have hockey, they could lay some part time peopie off in the winter as the city had enough to do the pinwin� without using the parks persannel. Ms. Konzak added that another consideration was that overtime had been used extensively in the hockey program, and it could'possibly be cut down if, for instance� there was more cooperation between'the city and:the hockey association. Ms. Seeger asked if she was to understand that these ten full-time peopls were charged to the hocke,y program for the full year, and Ms. Konzak said they wez�e � not. She explained that these people divi:ded their time between the general _ skating rinks and the hocke,y xinks in the winter� and in the summer their time was charged.to park maintenance. Ms. Seeger asked if there was a brEakdown of the ages using the activities, and � Ms. Konzak replied that there was, from the registration material. Ms. Seeger � said she would Tike to know if there were activi�ies covering the broad spectrum of age groups. Director Huff answered that�in some there were and some there were not; for instance� the basketball program had an adult program and a boy's program. � , Mr. Harris said that what he was trying to point out was that in hockey the costs � were divided against 51t0 participants, but there were also the kids playing hockey at various times who did not belong to a team. He felt there must be a thousand who were`using a hockey stick and puck. -He stated he felt there was some validity in stating that cost in maintenance does provide overtime, but he said he didn't think the city could hire full-time people on an alternate � season basis as these people wouldn't remain and also the union would step in. ;- M�. Huff pointed.out that•sane cities operate differently than Fx'idley, anc� mast of th�sn spei�d less mone_y, but they don't necessarily _have the Proc�ram soPhistica- � tion that Fridley has. , ' Mr. Maore said he felt if there rae�+e du}�lications that �his maney could be withdrawn to supply the particular areas that need it., Ms. Konzak stated that ir� her discussion with the City Marrager on this, his thought was.that if the � Commission Wanted to raise fees and revenues, he would be willing to reeommend ; �: an increase in terms of funds to be spent. Director Huff added that there wrere ; more ways:to reduce costs� such as chan�;ing around the activities provided by different groups. He said t.hat irz his neighborhood (St. Paul) the rinks w�xe flooded by �- , , � . . SPECIAL MEETING OF THE PARKS & FtECREATION CA�►4TSSIQ�3 - MNY 3, 1976 - PAGE lt _ volunteers who also took care of the snow removal, and they hadn't had any union problems. r+ir. Wagar added that the city also asked them to schedule the men to work four to midnight, but the union wouldn't al.low it. Mr. Harris stated the Commission should go back to some of these associations and tell them there are other aspects of these programs that they could help - with. He added that if they gat into the maint�nance area, he thought they were getting beyond the scope of this Commission. Mr. Wa�ar asked Ms, Konzak ta exglain vnder hoekey and general skating the cost of warming houses and vehicles. She replied that tt-�ey had taken the tota]. cost of warmin� houses and split in�in half to divide it between the two programs, which came to $3931� for each; and the same with vehicles, which came to $2605 each. Mr. Harris poin�ed out the differenc� in numbers of participants using hockey and general skating rinks, and thought that more of the cost should be related to open skating since there were ten times the participants: Dlrectcr Huff explained that each time a skater used the genEral rink it counted a5 one, ' whereas with the hockey they were talkir�g about the number of team p3ayers and nat counting every time they played. Mr. Harris said that then they should divide this into cost per hour and that would be reduced also. He stated they should take 5lt0 and multiply it by 3Q ta come out with the cost per gerson. Director Huff replied that that was an accurate cost per person {$2.63), but the 37¢ was not necessarily accurate. Mr. Harris said he felt there were a lot of variables in this information. He said if there is any sport the city is providing the facilities for, whsther there are 3a or 60 softball teams ar none at all, people axe going to play sofiba.11 and the city is going to prov�.de maintenance for that facility. He thought that charging it off against a certain team or sport dictn't represent a valid cost. � Direetor Huff brought up the fact that it took the ftizll staff ten days to two weeks just to dissassemble and store the boards from the hockey rinks, and Mr. Harris pointed out that was because the parks were being used for other purposes. Ms. Konzak said it became a question of what, for instance, would working on the field and cutting the grass be charg�d to--softball or park maintenance? She agreed that there were difficulties� but the information was as elosely verified as possible: Mr. Huff said these haci been gone over several times and were pretty accurate. The relative cost of the varzous programs including maintenance were correct. Mr. Harris stated there were a lot of things to go over on this, and sug{;ested, that.the Commission review the information for their next meeting. He thought the pEwple that use the hockey'rinks would be happy if the boards would stay up all season, but he understood the needs-for using a softball field. He said he '' thou ght the charge should be prorated and based on more than one thing. Mr. Moore said he would be interested in seeing the Commission come up with some ki.nd of recommendation to make a shift in the duplications or raise the fees to cover additional facilities where there were nane. Direct,or Huff said that this was the first time the Commission has been given any figures on individual programs, so at least they had some�hing ta start with �) �I � I u SPECIAL MEETING OF THE PARKS & RECREATION COMMISSION - MAY 3, 19?6 - PAGE 5. ^ and could rationally decide where the mo�ey should go. Mr. Harris stated that �` everyone involved in parks and recreation activities knew that these things were here to stay, and if the costs eould be off-set by additional fees or something else, tha�. is an additional consideration, Ms. Seeger asked if,they shouldn't co�sider the fact that some of the time the �athexs put into helping is actually their form of recreation. Mr. Wagar agreed and said that if the fathers didn't run the program the city couldn't afford to have it. Mr. Harris brou�ht up the excellent response they had always received in getting donations from organizations, and stated they felt it was worth it to help keep the kids out of trouble. Director Huff said he realized there is always immeasurabZe value in recreational actzvities, and all they wanted now was to start by being able to give the Commission the fiscal. reports, and if the figures were straight the immeasurable �alues would faTl in �i.ne. Mr. Harris suggested if the figures were accurate the Commission could depict haw much they were going to pay per a�ndividual for a particular activity, and if the fees came up short then,they could go back to that assaciation and tell them` that a maximum amount of expense had been set and the fees had come short by X amount of dollars, so they would have to come up w:ith whatever that came out to. Ms. Ko�zak told the Commission: she had some thoughts to leave with them� and' � asked that when they were lookirig at whether the program should be self-supgorting, partially funded or fully funded by the city, there shoi�ld be some th�ught to who was being served`and how many were being ser�red. She said that when you get into a question like ballet that is provided by different private groups and community schools, perhaps there is the�question that it should be made self-supporting. She stated there should be an idea,af how the funding should relate. Some programs _' are more expensive than others, and other'programs could perhaps be readjusted to beco�e self-supporting. She went on to s�.y that the s�tuati.�n uith the economy is such•that in 1967`the dollar was �.*orth one hundred cents, and now it is worth " sixty cents, so if the rates haven�t increased mueh since 1967 they �rere losirig approximately 1t0¢ for every dollar. Mr. Harris said one oi the things he would like to see done in relationship to activities as such was to gei in touch with the YMCA and see what they project : in areas of arts and eraits and ather individual act3vities. He explained the Y was in the throws of fund raising; they needed 21 million and had 15�� million raised. He further explained that many of the suhstantial comrnitments f"or money were conti.r��ent on the facility be�.ng built within a certain period of time� so � they were laoking•very carefull.y at where this money is and how ].ong it will be available. Ms. Kanzak thanked the Commission for allowing her to pr�sent the material, and : expressed her willingness to return to the next meeting if they desired. ^ DISCUSSICIN OF MINI-BIKE ANA SNOWMOB�LE AREA: .� : Mr. Clarence E. Krueger of l?3 Pilat Avenue,�N.E., Fridley, represented a group - interested in mini-bikes and snowmobiles. They requested that the axea behind SPECIAL MEETING OF THT PARKS & RECREATION CAMMISSION - MAY 3, 1976 - PAGE 6 the skating rink and ball field at Lt9th and Main Street be fenced off for use , by kids to run their mini-bikes, with a set of rules and regulations, Mr. Wagar stated that the city had only. a small amount of property (2 -!t acres) leased from the railroad, so it was mostly railroad property. Mr. Harris said at one point the city was interested in getting more land from them, but the _ railroad was not interested at that time, He explained the cit,y leased the land on a year to year basis, subject to cancellation with a 90-day notice. He suggested Mr. Krueger talk to the railroad people to see if they would have any objection ta the property being used for their desired purposes. Director Huf� said there were areas for the kids to ride their mini-bikes in Fridley, such as private proper�y and industrial ar•eas with permission from the owners. Mr. Krueger stated there was no place for the kids to play in.their neighborhood as older men had taken over the ball park, and suggested some type of schedul.ing. Mr, Huf£ informed him +.,hat there was a parks ranger on duty to 10 - 11 p.m.� and if the older men didn't have a permit they couldn�t kick anybody off the fie3d, Director Huff explained it wou].d be almost impossible to have a eity-sponsored motarized recreational axea because the hazards would be so great. He said the city would take on a public risk to manage it, and if a child got hurt the city wauld be faced with a law suit. He also painted out that there was a state law against sno�rmobiling on any railroad right of way, so if the railraad let them use the property �rithout proper fencing they might get on the right of way. Also, if�the r�,ilroad gave them permission� then the railr.oad would be liable for an;� accidents. Mr. Harxis suggested that the group get in contact wi.th Director Huff during business hours and try to get in touch with the gentleman from the railroad who could give'them permiss�on to use the property. Mr. Moore also suggested that they check with the YMCA. . � SPRINGBROOK NATURE CENTER FOUNDATION PLAN FOR NORTH PARK: �� ' I Mr. L. Vernon Moen, Chairman, Board of Directors df Springbrook Nature Center Foundation was present ta discuss the plan. He stated that they had actuall,y been working on this plan for several years� and he had been involved since January lst. He felt many of the citizens of Fridley were getting a little anxious and were wondering what happened to North Park. He said they respectfully ask the Commission's consideration and hopefully they could have the plan passed with the one correction noted in his letter to the Fridley City Mana�er and Council dated April 30, 1976. _ � Acting Chairman Harris stated they had just received their copies of the plan last week, and this was the first time it appeared on the agenda� so Mr. Moen could assure his people'that they were acting on it at their first opportuni�y. Mr. Moore said his major concern was.taken ;care of under item A on page 13 when "and without reimburs�ment" was ehanged to "with reimbursement as shall be agreed � upon betwesn the parties concerned". He said another concern he had was a e SPECIAL MEETIKG OF THE PARKS & RECREATI4N C01�IISSION,- MAY.3� 1976 - PAGE 7 • toilet facility being at the�entrance of County Road 132. Mr. Haxris said it � was his understanding.that the parkin� lot is coming off Gounty Road 132� and ' the rest room facilities were at the southeast corner. Mr. Moen said there wauld be rest room facilities inside �he buildin�. � Director Huff stated the rest rooms on the schedule on page 10 would be the last ; thing to be done, so their location was really tentative. He said that,before ; these would be built, specificatians would come back to the Commi.ssion for apgroval. He explained they were considered the lowest priority because satellites could be used. He said the idea was to have restrooms in the Nature Center Building, but there would be almost a mile walk to where the athers were located. Mr. Harr'is pointed out that nowhere in the plan did it state there would be facilities in the parking ls�t, and suggested it be part of their recommendation . to Council. He said the Comma.ssion was to make recommendations or suggestions on this, or could pass it just as it was, so if any of the members had suggestions they felt should be implemented in tn2s glan, n�w w�s the time to do it. � � Mr. Moore stated his concern was if the building they were going to build i.ncluded rest room facilities, and since it did he had no qualms about it. .�ir. Harris pointed �out it was a two-phase plan� so there would be a lapse between the start � of Phase T and the_completion of Phase II, Mr. Wagar asked if the reason there was only one access was that a person taking a naiure trip would want to start at one point and go all the way around. P�Ir-• I Huff replied the big problem with multiple ar;cess �rould be the control oi van�?alism. � Mr. Tr7agar said that concerning pa�e 13, as a Commission member he still d�dn't feel it agreed with the agreement that was signed by the city with the group originally. He-referred to the agreement on page i8, Director Huf£ explained " that what they are indicating is that this simply mea.ns the pl�n is fine� but � as far as to who zs paying what, that would be worked out in a different agreement with the Foundation and the city. : Mr. Wagar stated he had no qualms about Dan Huff the Naturalist being involved in North Fark, but he did have reservati4ns about Dan Huff as Parks and Recreation Director being up there. Director Huff replied that he didn't see why he would : be up there. He said his 5% time'would involve mak3.ng phone ca11s, ordering materials, gettang bidss meeting laws and engineering-type requirements. He said this brings it back into the Parks and Recreation Department where �t'should be� ! as this is our park land being leased and we are getting more control of it, � Mr. Wa�ar said he agreed and disagreed with what Mr. Huff was saying. He stated that the agreement was.like a con�ract� azzd when a contract is signed it must � .be in black and white. He said he felt like they were spinning their wheels because it was not in black and wl�ite. He stated he wished they would say that they want Nir. Huff for a certain amount of hours. Director Huff said he could � ' make the recommendation that if the Naturalist was separate from the Parks and � Re�reation Director, he should spend not more than 25% of his time; or if the Par�s.and Recreation Director was involved, he not spend more than 2� of his ti.me. He felt that would be a],ogical recommendation. � . . � r . .. .,. .. . �. ..: ,__ . . _ _> > _. _ __.r_ - . . _ : � �,,� . ��. i 1 SPECIAL MEETING OF THE PARKS & RECftEATION COMMISSION - MAY 3, 1976 - PAGE 8 Mr. Wagar asked if there was �oing to be a Naturalist in the Parks Department. Director�Huff ans�rered by saying that'he applied for the Parks and Recreation position and he felt he could manage�that and this other pro�ram, which would only be utilizing a srnall percentage of his time. He said he suggested to the City Manager�that he eliminate the position of Naturalist by completing the North Innsbruck and the Dunes this year, and then hire another person to be involved full time in all the recreational activities. Mr. Moore stated he would like to see the Parks and Recreation Commission help pay to establish the Nature Center since it is part af the Parks and Recreation Department. Mr. Harris stated he would like to�make sa:ne comments on the basis of dozng a review of the plan� and on the basis that they were not just discussing a plan but a piece of property that is owned by the city and it is requ.ired by ordinance that this Commission advise the Council on all proposals. He said the Commission should take a look at this propo5al in the light that this is a city-o�med piece of property and what would happen in relationship ta the land on a long-term basis. He suggested there axe probably four possibilities that might happen afte"r the five-year expiration date: 1. The Council may at this time extend or enter into a renewal for an - additional period of time with the S�ringbrook Foundation or any other Foundation to conti.nue a nature program. 2. The City Council might choose not to negotiate another lease, or the Springbraok Foundation may request the Council not extend the lease for two possible reasons: a) The city may say they have not lived up to the agreement that was signed and therefore they are under no obligation to extend the �ease. b) Springbrook Foundation, which is a.non--profit voluntary organization, may come back to the city and say the,y have tried their best to perform at North Park but they can no longer a.fford to manage it. 3. The City Council ma,y want to continue a nature program of their oim using the facilities that are there, ar may say it is an expensive operation and they cannot afford to operate it. They might want to allow the land to remain as open s�ace with no programs or plans for future dev�lopment. !t. Aiter a period of time if one or more of the above situations come to �pass� the citizens may request that the land be developed for another use such as tent�is courts or softball diamonds. Director Huff suggested two other possibilities: �. Once the program begins to operate, the Foundation may request that another agency or foundation take over their program and xequest that the City Council give the program to this group. (Mr. Huff su�gested . that a longer lease may be obtained to help eliminate this possibility). �, � SPECIAL MEETII3G OF THE PARKS & RECREATIOH COMMISSION - MAY 3, 1976 - PAt3E 9 _ , . � �J: 2. The Foundation may say they don't want to be involved in the day to day operations any more, except in an advisar,y capacity, and may want the city to take it over so they could be just a fund-raising orgar�ization. Mr. Harris stated he felt that cap�tal improvement projects started b,y Sprin�brook I should have io be fully funded before this Co�nission should pass their construction � or building, Nlr. Moen said they realized that the City Counci.l had to pass all capital :improvements. ' Director Huff asked what type of documentation he was suggesting, and Mr. Harris replied he thought all major capital improvements (anything over $2,500) should i come to this Commission for approval. Directar Huff stated it was a very ambiguous � situation as to what is ftznded� as volunteers come forv.ard to provide a service i which is already funded in the budget. For e�ample, he explained, the Jaycees want to bu�ld the sign and there is money in t1-:� budget for it. Mr. Harris said if they had CETA people working, he thought a decision would have to be made as to where their best`use would be. He added-that if item !� was ' i.mplemented, then staff should come up with recommendations so that any ca.pital improvements or projects that might be used in the area might be pra;jected sa � that the city isn't sitting with a large piece of land that ean't be used. He tald Mr. Huff he didn't think they had the time to send him up there because I any time he was spending at Spr-ingbrook would be time taken away from the city. � `� Director Huff replied that Mr. Harris was forgetting that they were get�ing a full-time man in Recreation through December throu�h CETA personnel. Tn the agree- ment we.�rrrite up with Springbrook, he said, i.t should be stat�d that we can cor.imit �% of the�Director�s time through December. He explained that GETA stood for ' Comprehensive Employment Training Act, which provided-an increase in public service at no change'in local taxes. Mr. taagar asked if the Recreational man was going to be GETA personnel, and Mr. Huff.replied he was. He stated it has been funded through December by an ac� of Gongress. Mr. Waga.r said then the,y were-ac�ually hiring a iul.].-time but temporary man, and rir. Huff agreed and added that his duties would cease after December, Director Huff said he hoped that by January 1 the • Commission would recommend to Council that another full-time man is needed. He explained it could not happen in mid-year wi�hout Council action. Mr. Harris stated ihat the area designated as North Park has a property valued in excess of a million dollars, and it seemed unrealistic to provide such a minimum developrnent on'-such expensive larid as outlined in Phase I of the'construction proposal.' If proposals 2 and 3 are to be considered, he said, the C�.ty Council should continue to maintain the facilities utilizi.ng public funds, then some changes.should be made to make certain the bulk.of the expense does no� revert to the cit,y at this time� or that Phase I should be fully funded. He said that for all construction� certain amounts should be set aside for contingencies. He said he thought there should be an additional l0� added to the $�lt,000 so there would � be a contingency budget of $5,��. , �Directar Huff replied that 20� was provided in the plan, and explai.ned they took �the estimated cast and added 20� t4 every item. He further expla�ned it didn't �� , specifically state that in the grant because they didn't want that. He said the SPECIAL MEETING OF THE P.ARKS & RECREATI4N COMMISSION - MAY 3, 1976 - PAGE 10 city staff explained to the City Council that they added 20� of the estimated cost an an item to it�em basis so they would be sure of having the money, and this included materials and labor. Mr. Harri� asked what would happen if these items were more than that amount of money, and Director Huff replied that if the materials were more1 construction would have to be stopped or some item might have to be eliminated, but ehances of thdt happening were very small. Mr. Moen said he thought it was common practice that anything considered for future construction had an added amount for inflation, and any of the maJor items are put out on competitive bids, so they were'covered on that. He added that he thought they were going ta come out on the fat end of this. At t3�is point Mr. Moore had to leave the meeting, but he said he wanted the Commission to know his vote was to approve the plan. Mr. Harris asked about the'c�sts £or maintenance, and Director Huff answered that the city agreed to iurnish maintenance of North Park on a'regularly-scheduled basis, the costs to be reimbursed to the city by the Foundation. rir. Harris then asked what would happen if the Foundation didn't have enough money to reimburse the city, and Director Kuff said thez� the Council would have to decide whether they wanted to do it or not, hir. Moen added that they had a fund-rasi.ng committee and �he members were dedieated and hard working, and they were �oing to appraach many funding sources, businesses, the public, etc., and he didn't think there was any chance o� them failing. • Other than coniingency funds and reimbursement for maintenance, rir. Harris said� he,was a2so concerned about items 2 and 3 and ��hat �rould happen under this proposed grant to protect the city from having to operate this facility at the gublic's expense. Director Huff said there were na operati.ng costs in the plan, and the • city waula not have to operate it. He explained the city was liable for the improvements from the day they gat the check, whether they have an,y agreement or plan with the Foundation. He flzrther explained that if costs of improvements went above expectations, an amended development procedure would have to be filed with Lawcon Agency. Mr. Huff added that there was no obligation on the part of the city`accepting this grant to maintain or continue North Park on the program that is started by the Springbrook Foundation. Mr. Peterson apologized to the Commission for arriving late. He said the city did have certain commitments beaause if Springbrook did not renew the lease so the nature center aspect of North Park was not carrie� out, the city would have to go to Lawcan to ask for permission to remove the improvements. He stated that therefore the city had committed that property to a nature center. Director Huff explai.ned that the city bought the pro�erty with Lawcon f1�.rids for a golf course. He continued that after the City Council decided that this should be dedicated as a nature center, the city went back to Lawcon �tith a revi.sed program, ar�d Lawcon sai,d that was no problem.. He said that all they were approving now is these improvements being @eveloped. �. Mr. Peterson stated he was no��for the plan as it was here because he was not satis�ied with what was happening with the Farks and Recreation Department and the wsy Airector Huff's time was beir�g split. Mr. Moen explained to Mr. Peterson �'I � � .� � � SPECIAL ME�TING OF THE PARKS & RECREATIQN C4MMISSION - MAY 3� 1976 - PAGE 11 t � tt�at he-had missed part of the discussion� and that while Mr. Huff would delegate - most of this, the,y needed him in that he had an ongoing relationship with this ..- and worked with the members of th� Springbrook Board to get it underway. Mr. rioen � said that if Director Huff could direc�.somebody and keep tabs on him� he thought it could be done with minimum use of his time. Mr. Peterson disagreed and said supervision didn't work that way as it took a lot of time and nobody could run something like that on a 5% time basis working . � with volunteers. P�[r. Moen said that if rir. Huff were required to do all the work himseli, Mr. Peterson would be'absolutely right� but he would be supervising the work. Mr. Moen stated he thought it was a viable plan. Mr. Harris said that lookin� unc�er B on page 13 regaxding Phase II� it didn't say what Phase iI is other' than it is going to be planned as soon as funds *n*ere F available and there is goin� to be a bui3.ding of approximately 5,000 square feet� � �' and he was concer:��d �.hout nc�t being able to +ie that� dowr� in a li.ttle ti.�hter program. He said that in order for this body to sit do�an and plan and mana.ge park use and park land, the funding of the plan under Phase II should be covered under Phase I. Mr. rioen stated that they had the City Council bring up the same � question, and they seemed to be'satisfied With �he a.ns�:er. He cantinued that so I much depends on this ongoing operaiion and what type of eitizen response they had, how much work there would be in handling this program, that they cou7d be certain there would be many changes made befare getting into Phase II. He said it was diffieult to make it concise when there were many changing factors. � Mr; Peterson said he was talking about buildings and structures, and the plan said the F'oundation "expects" ta complete it. He �tated he fe].t the plan was left apen to a point that Phase II may never m�teria.l ize. ��ir. i�;oen expla.ined that they had to have a plan in �and to say "this is what tre are �oing to do", so as soon as it ti�as approved they wQUld have something they coul.d show. Mr. t*Jagar stated he agreed with l�ir. Harris' points�,but he felt they should give , the Foundation people a chance to get off the ground.' . . . Mr. Harris said he had a responsibility as a member of this Comtnission to s�y what he thought should be done, and he was not against Spri.ngbrook. He saa.d he , wanted to �o ahead with it but he wanted to protect this committee and the people ! in �his community. : MOTION by Dave Harris to accept the North Park Nature Center P1An with the addition of the following four itemst . 1. An additianal 10� (or $5,lt00) budgeted for contingency before approval ', of this plan is given. � 2. $2�000 far maintenance costs,that may be reimbursed by the Foundation i baak to the city� should be escrowed before any construetion is done. � 3. The city should pratect itself,under provisions of aecepti.ng this or any other grant, from the city having to operai�e a Nature Ir�t$i��retation � proqram on a continuing basi.s. • ' �s✓ . !�, Development planning forPhase II be furided under Phase I. 5PECL4L MEETING OF THE PARKS & R�CREATION CO�tMISSION -._MAY 3, 1976 - PAGE 12 Phe motion died for lack of a second. � ' Ms. Seeger said she would like to explain that they had to have the dollars for an architect to come up w�ith the schematics, and that isn't i.ncluded in Phase I because I doesn't include a building, and they did have a two-year contract. She said pr'iorities had to be put first� and the site could operate without a building. Mr. Peterson asked if Mr. Moen had the $27,00� grant or if it was cantingent on the approval of this plan, and Mr. Moen said it was contingent on them matching funds with either labor, money� or materials, or a combination of the three. Mr. Peterson then asked if the approvsd plan would enable them to raise the funds, and Mr. rioen replied they were all set to go. I�lr. Peterson asked who prepared the brochure� and pir. Moen answered that the,y did i� partly with a suggested plan i that Mr. 2ialkowski drew upi the Board supplied information, Director Huff supplied a great deal:of inforn�►ation and the work involved in organizing it, but the Founda- tion worked ovsr t?;e plan ��.ge by pa�e in their discussions, Mr. Wagar said he believ�d the people were honorable, and he would second p1r. Harris' motion if number !� were eliminated. MQTION by Dave Harris, seconded by Mr. Wa�ax' to accept the North Park Nature Center Plan with the addition of the following three items: 1. An additional 10� (or �w5,1�Q0) budgeted for contingency before approval of this plan is given. 2. $2,000 far maintenance costs that may be reimbursed by the Foundation back�to the city, be esCrowed. . 3. The city should protect itself, under provisions of accepting this or any other grant, from the cit,y having to operate this at the city�s expense on a continuing basis.. � Mr. Peterson said he could not vote for the motion� because Di_rector Huff's time was being allocated to Springbrook withaut any indications of ar►ount of time, He said no one could spend only 5� of their time and supervise a pro�ram that is going to be run basically with volunteers axid accomplish what they iaant to accomplish, and he didn't think Springbrook was being fair in asking that. He added that'he was speaking against the motion because.he was not in favor of the Parks & Recreation Director serving as our Director and being programmed to spend ti.me with another organization. He stated it should be either/or, but he also felt Spri.ngbrook �hould be allowed an opportunity to develop the pragram that the people ►�anted. He added that he had no quarrel with the points made by Mr. Harris, but was against the motian because the plan included the request fpr Director Huff�s time, �n Mr. Peterson suggestecl the motion be amended to include a statement saying that the Parks and Recreation Director's time under no circumstances be allocated: to : Spri.ngbrook Nat�re Center� and Mr. iiarris said he would so amend the motion. MOTIOId bv Dave Harris, seconded b,y Mr. Wa.�ar, to accept the North Park Nature /� Center p?an with the addition of the folZowing items: 1. An sdditional 10� (or $5,lt00) budgeted for contingency before approval a s p an �s given. � SPF�CIAL MEETING OF`THE PARKS & RECREATION COMMISSION - MAY 3� T97b - PAGE 13 , . 2. $2,OOO.for maintenance costs that ma,y be reimbursed b,y the Foundatior ac o e cz y, be escrowed�before our construction. 3, TYie city should an,y a er �ran , expense on a con !t. That the bs alloc tect itself under nrovisions of acceptin, this or om t e ci y havin� to operate this at the_city's sis. s and Recreation Director's .me under no circumstances Upon a voice vote, t•4essrs. Harris, Wagar and Peterson voting aye, Mrs. Seeger voting nay, the motion carried 3�- 1. (Mr. Moore had left the meeting prior to this motian) MOTION bv Harvev '•Ja�ar, seconded by Bob Peterson, that the si�n for the Nature CPnter be cha.n�ed to read SPRII:GBROOK NA.TURE CENT�,R AT P�0?�TH PAt2h, Upon a voice vote, all votin� a�e, the_motion carried unanzmously. ri00RE LAK� BEACH HOtTSE EXPANSION : Director Huff passed out to the Commissioners a dia.gram of the proposed Moore Lake Beach House alteration. He showed them how the existing �rall could be moved to the north for expG.nsion and frost pratection added around the footings of the buildin� on the northwest corner for approximatel,y $�.,500. � Mr. Peterson said he felt it wasn't large enough to handle the people at the - concession area, and Directar Huff said there was the possibility of adding a second window. He felt it had to be expanded to all.o�s�_ room for a freez8r and ice cream. He stated there had to be enougn room for people inside that area , to sufficiently operate. Mrs. Seeger was concerned that on rainy days when the resuscitation classes �aere held, there wouldn't be e:�augh room for the children, 2nd she suggested using movable walls. Director Huff said if a sliding door was opened up, the concession stand would be accessable. � Airector Huff said he realized he brought copies of the wrong plan, and Mr. Harris suggested he mail out to the members of the Commission the corrected drawi.n�s along with any information relating to its cost. MQTION by Dave Harris, seconded by Harvey Zda�ar, to approve the eoncept of the six foot shift in the wall. Upon a voice vote� all voting aye, the motion carried unanimously. WEEKEND TOURNAMENTS IN FRIDLEY: , Mr. Peterson said that since the two big tournaments (Jaycees and Fire & Police) were vert� well respected and good flxnd raisers for both of them� the city has protected those two organizations because it has been a, tremendous flind raiser ^ for them. He was cancerned that if more people were allowed to pl.ay in tournaments,, �, it might detract fram their fund-raising drives. For that reason� he stated, he' `• would be a littl.e �rehensive about chaziging the policy. Mr. Harris said he agreed with Mr. Peterson. . � _ , , _ _ , ._ .. .....��:, SPECIAI� MEETING OF THE PARKS & RECREATION COMMISSION - MAY 3, 1976 - PAGE 11t � Director Huff said he had to have a policy established, even if it was only providing for ihe Jaycees and Fire and Police, so he would have sornething to tell those other peopl.e requesting taurnarients. Mr. Huff asked the Commissioners their feelings about concessions, and rlr. Harris explained that this was how they made their money� as the city gave them a special license. MOTION by Mr. Peterson, seconded by l�ir. Wagar, that this year the city continue the policy of only having the twa fund-raising taurnaments (Ja,ycees and �'ire and Police) and if other charitable �roups want to have tournamenis ttzey will be reauired to comn before the Commission for permission, and that all �roups post a$I00 bond which would be returned if the field �ras properly cleaned up.' Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, tYie motion carried unanimously. TENNIS COtIRT LOC 4TIQNS : Director Huff passed out diaorams of the proposed tennis court locatians, and informed, the Commission that the courts in Ruth Circle Park and Summit Square were scheduZed for this year� but the budget was $b,Q00 short of the $12,000 needed for the Psadsen court. . rI0TI0N b,y Dave Harris Z seconded by Harvey Wagar, that the $6,000 in the bud�et for the t:adsen tennis co�zrt be carried over to next v�ar for cornpletion at that time. Upan a voice vote, all votin� a,ye, tize motion carried un3nimously. Director Huff proposed that the court be put in a.n east-west position, s�uth of the volleyball field. : Ms. Seeger asked if the existing lights in Rutr Circle could'be turned around to service the tennis courts, and ��r. Huff explained the preGent policy T•�as that there be no lighted tennis courts. rir. Peterson pointed out that it wou.ld increase the recreational use at these courts� and Mr. ;;'agar said a metered system had been discussed previously. Director Huff informed the members that lighting the courts would increase their � cost by 50�. Mrs. Seeger pointed out that perhaps in Ruth Circle and other si.milax parks the existing lights could be made mu].ti-purpose to serve the needs of both hockey and tennis. rlr. Peters�n asked Mr. Huff. if he could take a look at this and make a reeammendation for Ruth Circle, and if -the lights couldn't be used the way Mrs. Seeger s�zggested� then they V�ould have to take the location that was on the diagram. He said his main concern was that �he court not be too close ta the neighbors. Director Huff said that Summit Square was a•two-piece park� with a playground area across the street. He said he agreed with the location on the diagram as he didn't see any other place to put it in this park. MOTION by Jan Seeger, seconded by Harvey Wagar, to accept the tennis court Iacations with the recommendations discussed. Upan a voice vote, all voting aye� the motion carried unanimously. �� I SPEC�AL MEETING OF THE PkRKS & RECR,EATI01� COMMISSION - MAY 3� 1976 - PAGE 15 � BASKETBALL COUFiT �tEIACATTON FROM RIV�RVIEW HEIGHTS TO SPRINGBROOK: Director Huff said it had been su�gested that the basketball court be moved from Riverview Hei�hts. to Springbrook. He said this would leave the Riverview Heights p2xk large enough for ball p].a,yingy and since Sprin�brook was,so small the basketball court was about the only thing that wou�d fit there. He stated he� was neutral on this, but the advanta�e to putting it at Glencoe would be to discourage kids from'pla,ying ball and running thraugh yards and breaking �i.ndows, However, he said, if they still pla,yed catch, the same thing would happen. Mrs. 5eeger suggested displa,ying a positive sign saying something like "Ba11 Playing A11c�wed for Age 11 and Under". r10TI0N by Jan Seegsr, seconded by Harvey trJagar, to.move the proposed basketball court from Riverview Heights to Springbrook. Upon a voice vote� all voting aye, the motion carried unanimously. TAX FORF�IT PROPER�Y: Director Huff showed the Commission the tax forfeit properties on the map. Mrs. Seeger suggested utilizing some of the properties to make small, neighborhood parks k*hich would be kept up by the citizens, and would encourage cit,y pride. Mr. Huff e�plained that this �ras a hard thing to do as the people could injure themselves. He added that when you have a park you are encouraging people to go there, so the parks have to.be big enough to serve a purpose. �� Mr.�Wa�ax•agreed� and said that the little tot lots causeci many problems. He said I that the parents of the little ones wanted fenc�s around the parks; and there � were problems taith the older kids playing ba11 and getting them in the neighbor's I Y�,a• , r Mrs. Seeger suggested contacting the Rivervie.�r Heights grouo and consulting them. Mr. Peiexson asked if Director Huff could find out if thexe was any pro�ert,y . north of Riverview Heights in Coon Rapids that was vacant, and suggested that perhaps some kind of an arrangement could be made for a park axea. MOTION by Jan Seeger, seconded by Harvey Wagar� to red tag all the circled pieces af tax-forfei� property on the map. Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried unanimously. " USE OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES IN PARKS: Mr. Peterson informed the Commissa;on that the City Council had passed an ordina�nce regarding the use of liquor in`the parks which allowed the use of 3.2 beer bn occasions, � _ ASHTON PARK: � Direetor.Huff showed the Commission a preliminary diagram of the park. He stated ~ _that because the building of the underpass had caused a reduction of circulation ; _ f t ,. r � i . � SPECIAL MEETING OF THE PARKS & RECRFATION COMMISSTON - MAY 3� 1976 - PAGE 16 � , through the chureh parking lot, the county was interested in getting a paxking lot to be used by the church on Sunda,ys and alsa for use by the park. He showed where a pond would be put in, plus two tennis courts and a basketball court. Mr. Wagar suggested a permanent brick buildin� for use as a warming house be built. MOTION by Jan Seeger, seconded by Harvey Wagar, to anprove the preliminary plans of the park with the recommendation of a building being included. Upon a voice vote� all voting aye, the motion carried unanimously. SOFTBALL PROG:3AI i ftEPORT : - Director Huff made a brief report on the status oi the softball program� and informed the Commission there were 58 teams in softball this ye�.r. SNO'rT;O�ILE RE5TRICTIONS : � I�.r. Peterson sug�ested the Commission come up T•rith an ordinance restricting snor�amobile use, and rir. Wagar said that there were other cities ti,rho banned them� such as Coon Rapids. He pointed out there were trails on ��Jest �Ioore I,ake and in Locke Park, but, �here i�ere a loL of complaints abeut the noise. Director H�:ff also pointed out that there was a lot of d�nage i.n- LocY.e Park caused b,y snowmobiles. �He said that most of the people who use the snoVnnobil.es taere under- age� so i � was a matter oi corivinci.ng the parerits. ADJOURNItNIEN i : . 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IWi � � O�i � d !t' Z M 00 � U .- . . . . � . . . . .. .. /1 . .�� J., � �' N�UN� C�� ..K ..�1 .. . . . . . . . . . � l . . . . N . . 1A b4 !R � tR � r--� 4R � . . . . . . � p�. .� N M . . ..�.0 . . . . � . . .ti . . � .. . . � Z � . . . � . N . . . . . - � � �. . . . . � . . .� � . � } � � Z � . . . .. . . . . •-. O Oi . . � i. . . . M :.. � � . � . . Z . . . . . . � .. . . F . V . . y .. . ¢ .. . � . . . . �. � . � .. . . . N � Vi�� CO . . . . . . , . .F'^' ... . OC� . . W l0 .. . . . . � � . I . � . . .. . . .;. . . V . � !- � � . . U f� . � . y-� .. . . . . . . , . . MN . . �� . . .. . . . ... . .. . � . . . . . 1 . . � ..� d. �Z . . ' p . . M � . � � .. . , � . . � . . .. ` . t/f r-+ . �. G..> � � U . . . . .. . . � . � . . . . .. . . .. . . . .. . . . . . . - . � . . . � . � . . . .. ... . ... . � . � . � � ' � � I � FUN�DING REQUIREMEf�TS OF RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES � (Based on 1975 Qata) CURRENT MAJOR ACTIVITIES � MINOR ACTIVITIES No Funding Required (Self-Supporting Activities) Concessions Men's Gym Ski ing Square Dancing � Table Tennis Gymnastics Tennis � � Partial Funding Required .�: � Broomball Arts & Crafts football Ba11et Volleyball Hockey ; PlaYground Softball � Basebal l � Basketball I. Full Funding Required � Lifeguard 4th af July Swim Insiruction City Band . General �kating ; _ r1 .�.� • � - �. � JKk 4l29/76 - i I , > . COMPA ; RECREATIONAL/CULTURAL ACTI • NO INCLUSIUE �� Arts a�d Crafts Ballet Band Guitar Square Dancing I Dog Obedience � Decaupage ladies Day Out Fire Rrms Safety Camping Trips Cheer leading Theatre Workshop Womens Qance Puppet Show Pottery Yoga � Snowmobile Instruction • `' Social Recreation for Mentally Handicapped Trimnastics Photography Senior Citizens Scuba Activities ; Children's Movies Ballroom Dance Bridge Bicycle Maintenance Oay Camp , Tap Dancing � � Painting ". ' . Teen Drop-In Totals ^ *Sponsored by Community Schools RISON OF REGREATIO� VITIES BROOKLYN FRIDLEY CENTER X X X X X X X X * X * X * * X X * X * X * X '� * x ' X X � � X I� ' X !i * X * X I �I � * __ X 6 17 � AL ACTIV CRYSTAL X X I I , �� , X X X X 6 [TIES i ROSE- VILLE X X X X X X X X X x X i I X X 13 �75 - 1976 BROOKLYN � PARK X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X I x X X 18 GOLDEN VALLEY X X� X X X X I �� i X � X X X X x X x X X X 17 __ I I I , I � I _( COON RAPIDS X �� X I X X X X X X X X X X X 13 MAPLE- 4100D X X X X X X X X I! X � , II X i I X X X X 14 JKK 4/24/ EDINA X X X X X X X X X X X ! X 12 COMI ORGANIZED ACTIVITIES � Softball Baseball Basketball Hoc key BroombaTl Football Yolleyball Horseshoes Wrestling Soccer T-ba11 Totals INQIVIDUAL ACTIVITIES Swirrmi ng Tennis � Skiing � � Skating 6o1f Judo and Karate Open 6ym PTayground i I � � � �I Gymnastics Archery Baton Fencing Totals �'� (r , a 'ARISON 01 FRIDLEY X X X X X` X X X X X 10� X X I X X X X X 7 1 I ' RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES BROOKLYN ROSE- CENTER CRYSTAL VILLE X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X .X • X X X X 8 8 9 ' X X . X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X ' X X X 9 9 9 I _ I I 1975 - 1976 BROOKLYN GOLDE� PARK VALLEY X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 9 11 X X X X X X X X X X 10 � I X X X X X X X X i X X 10 I *COON RAPIDS X X X X X X X X X X 10 MAPLE- W000 EDI X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X , 10 '6 ( X X ' X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X 10 11 *Comm- unity Schools sponsors all rec- reation, funded in part by City. JKK 4/29/76 I X. 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