06/25/1973 - 00016396z��f
THE MINUTES OF THE SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING aF THE CITY COUNCIL, JUNE 25, 1973
� Mayor Liebl called the Spe,,�,al �ublic Hearing Meeting of the Fridley
City Council to order at 7.35 p.m., Sune 25, 1973.
PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE:
Mayor Liebl led the Council and the audience in saying the Pledge of
Allegiance to the Flag.
INVOCATION:
The City Manager, Mr. Gerald R. Davis, offered the invocat�on.
ROLL CALL.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Starwalt, Liebl, Nee, Breider.
MEMBERS ABSENT: Utter.
ADOPTION OF AGENDA:
Mayor Liebl said there would be an addition to the agenda as item
number three and this would be receiving a letter £rom School District
Number 14 regarding North Fark.
� MOTION by Councilman Breider to adopt the agenda as amended. Seconded
by Councilman Starwalt. Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, Mayor
LieBl declared the motion carried unanimously.
APPROVAL OF COMMUNICATION TO FEDERAL CONIMUVICATION COMMISSION,
WASHINGTON D.C.:
Councilman Nee said he hoped 'this would be sent before the Public
Hearing on the CATV matter. He said he would like a clear statement.
He added, he could submit the questions as an individual, but he
thought it would be better if they were submitted by the Council.
Councilman Nee said this would resolve the questions he had in his
mind.
Mayor Liebl read the deviations in the FCC rules as stated by
Councilman Nee in his letter addressed to Mr. Sol Schildhause of the
FCC:
1. That the Franchise provides £or the payment of Sa instead
of 30, �aithout �ustification being provided in the applica-
tion.
2. That FCC rules (Section 76.31b) requires that any fee
charged the CATV operator by the municipality shall be
applied only to the subscriber revenue base, not to
� the gross xevenue base.
Councilman Nee said the proposed lette�' commented on the two questions.
He said he would like to knota if the FCC has in fact denied "Certifi-
cation" for this franchise, or does this 3mply that the franchise will
be denied. Councilman Nee said if the Franchise is in �eopardy, he
would like to know.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC hEARING NIEETING �P JUNE 25, 1973
PAGE 2
Mayor Liebl asked Counczlman Nee if he was proposing going to court
on the matter. Councilman Nee said no.
Mayor Liebl asked if he was questioning the regulations of the FCC?
Councilman Nee said he wanted the answers to the questions in his
mind.
Mayor Liebl said this would help the Council to get some answers�
from the Pederal Communications Commission.
MOTION by Councilman Nee that the City Council or Mayor send this
letter or some version of thzs letter to the Federal Communications
Commission. Seconded by Councilman Breider for point of amendment.
Councilman Breider said he would like it a matter of record that
any matter which is discussed between the City and the FCC would not
affect General Television. He said he would not like to see the
license help up.
AMENDMENT to the motion by Councxlman Breider that the matter be
considered between the FCC and the City only and �ould not involve
or hold up the license of General Televis3on. Seconded by Councilman
Nee.
UPON A VOICE VOTE OF THE AMENDMENT, all voting aye, D4ayor Liebl
declared the motion carried unanimously.
UPON A VOIC� VOTE OF THL ORIGINAL R40TION, all voti.ng aye, Mayor
Liebl declared the motion carried unanimously.
Mayor Liebl asked the City Manager to prepare such a letter for the
review of the Council.
Councilman Nee asked when the hearing would be
said the hearing would be July 2, 1973.
NORTH PARK DISCUSSION:
The City Manager
Mayor Llebl said the purpose of the discussion would be for the
Council to hear the presentations by Brauer and 1�ssociates and also
Ehlers and Associates. He said the Council may have some questions
for the representatives of the firms. Mayor Liebl said the meeting
would be open to those people wishing to comment on the matter.
Mayor Liebl said he woud like to make a statement to the Council,
mem�ers of the staff, audience, and representatives from the various
firms and organizations that were presant at the meeting:
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 pAG� 3
� STATEMENT BY MAYOR PRANK G. LIEBL:
The decision on the proper use o� the area known as North Park is one
of the more important decisions facxng the City Council. Back in
1970 through 1972, this land was acquired through a land and water
conservation grant, with the City paying one quarter of the cost,
and the State and Federal Government paying the other three-quarters.
In the grant application, it was stated that the land would be
utilizad for a recreational use and park use of the public. There
was also mention made that one possibility for the use of the land
would be for a golf course, which is an allowable use under LAWCON
grant applications. In fact, in the 1968 plan of the State, there
was an element in it which showed a deficlency of golf courses in
the Twin City area. In checking with the State Planning Agency
that approved the grant application for Pridley, this is one of the
reasons our grant was approved and given high priority. Also, in
the Bureau of Qutdoor Recreation, which is a federal agency, the
acquisition of land for utilization as a golf course is a perfectly
legal and justifiable use of land that is acquired with federal and
state funds. Tliis is not to say that the land could not also be
utilized for a nature center. Certainly nature centers are a new and
very worthwhile utilization of spaces by cities and counties.
The dilemma that the City Council faced, back in January of this year,
� was what to do with North Park. It had suggestions from the League
of Women Voters that indicated that they would like to see the area
turned into a nature center. In the same token, the Chamber of
Commerce indicated they would like to see the Council develop this
area as a golf course. The League did not have too many specifics
on exactly what they meant by a nature center. "Nature Center,"
of course means different things to different people. It could range
all the way from leaving an area �ust as it is and not developing it
at all, to a highly developed area such as the Woodlake Na*_ure
Center in Richfield, in which some $800,000 was spent to modify the
landscape for development as a nature center. So there is a wide
difference of opinion of exactly what constitutes a nature center.
It seemed like a logical approach to try to get sose professional
expertise on this matter. No one on our City staff had ever done
the planning or design of either a nature center of a golf course.
This is a rather specialized function which it was felt that consul-
tants who had actually worked and designed both nature centers and
golf courses was needed for professional assistance. The City Council
then did two things which will help them arrive at a decision on North
Park. First they appointed a ten member c�tizens committee to study
North Park and its uses. Councilman Tim Breider has served as
moderat�r of the North Park Committee. Secondly, after considerable
review by the staff, the firm of Brauer and Associates was employed
� to do a comprehensive study of the area and come in with some recom-
�endations to assist thxs Counc�l in mak�ng its decision.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 4
Why was the firm of Brauer and Associates chosen to do this study? �
(?) They were an independent consultant, outside the community, who
did not have any particular activity (either a golf course or a nature
center) for which they were pressing. (Z) The firm has done feasi-
bility studies for a number of other cities, and they have received
very good reports on their ob�ectivity and the quality of the studies
they have performed. In addition to per£orming feasibility studies,
they have done work on a number of nature centers. Among these are
the Woodlake Nature Center, Richfield, for which they did the com-
plete £easibility, planning and design construction of the center;
the I-Iighland Park Pdature Center in Bloomington; the Carver Nature
Center in Carver Park, Victoria, Minnesota; the Palmer Lake Nature
Center, Brooklyn Center, feasibility study and preliminary develop-
ment plan and a number of other projects related to nature center
development. In addition, this same firm has done feasibility
studies and designed a number of golf courses across the country and
�n the Twin City area. Among these include Braymar Golf Course in
Edina, Majestic Oaks Country Club in Anoka County and a third nine
hole course for Highland Park Golf Course in St. Paul. It appeared
to the City Council that this firm then would be eminently quali£ied
to consider both nature centers and golf courses, as these were the
two most suggested uses for the North Park. The firm was commissioned
to do the study and �o work with the Committee in the development of
its recommendation to the Council.
The firm has done a rather exhaustive �ob in studying North Park and �
has presented us with their study, including their conclusions and
recommendations. The primary recommendation is, "Golf should �ave
the first priority on the use of North Park site." The second
recommendation is, "Fridley should begin immediately to develop a
comprehensive program of nature interpretation and outdoor education
in cooperation with all the school districts, Anoka and Ramsey County."
The report goes into great detail on why a gol£ course is needed
and why North Park is the only feasible site for the location of that
golf course. In the same token, they are not downgrading the nature
interpretive program whatsoever. The report is simply saying that
Fridley should take the lead in utilizing a number of resources that
exist both in the City and in the north end of the Twin City area
with other municipalities and counties to develop the most compre-
hensive nature interpretive program possible. The other resources
include Locke Park-Rice Creek Park-Medtronic Park complex-Islands
of Peace-Bunker Prairie Park in Anoka County-Bush Lake-Chain of
Lakes-and Carlos Avery. They are also suggesting that a resource
for a nature interpretive center exists at Locke Park and this should
Ue developed. These consultants worked independently and without
direction as to what conclusions they would come up with from either
the City staff or the City Council. A citizens committee of ten
members was appointed to advise the consultants and provide input
into the study. Unfortunately the stud� did not change the opxnion
of the people advocatzng a nature center as the use of North Park. '
�or tTiis, I am rather disappointed in some members o£ the North Park
Committee.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE S
� The second important aspect that this City Council must consider is
that of how to finance a£acility, be it a golf course or a nature
center. It was for this reason that the City Council hired our
regular financial consultants, tfie firm of Ehlers and Associates, to
look at both of these possibilities, and to report to use on hoia these
could be financed. They have told us that a golf course could
be financed through gross revenue bonds, which would be financed and
repaid from green fees and other revenues of a golf course. The
City Council does have the authority to issue these bonds without
an election. Assuming a golf course became operational in 1975,
the revenues from the course would be sufFicient to pay off the bonds
over a 20 year period successfully. The financing on a nature
center would be £or about $555,000, and this would require a vote
of the people for general obligation bonds. There have been some
questions raised as to whether we need a$SSS,000 nature center.
This again gets to the point of �ust exactly what are you talking
about in the form of a nature center. One of the things that Brauer
was instructed to look at in item 1G of his agreement with the
City, was to do a construction cost analysis for both a golf cou�se
and a nature interpretive facility. His obligation was as follows:
"A range of costs will be provided, together with a general descrip-
tion of the facility quality, associated with an optimum ($400�,ODD
for a nature center and $750,D00 for a golf course) figures for
each development possibility." He was also instructed to "Present
' an operation, projection and cash flow analysis for both facilities."
It is, of course, possible to build a nature center for less than he
has suggested. But what kind of nature center are we talking about7
One of the reasons we hired Brauer and Associates was to suggest what
type of nature center would be feasible and adequate for this area.
He had done that. _
There may be possibilites for other forms of financing, but we have
not had too much encouragement from the contacts with the State and
Federal Government. As you know, there is presently an impoundment
upon federal funds £or all types of grants. This includes sewer
and water grants in addition to land acquisition grants. On January
16, 1973, our City Manager met with Bob Nethercut and Pete Jacobson,
Park Planner for the Metropolitan Council, to discuss what the status
of grant applications were and what the availability of federal and
state mor.ey was for development purposes. The Metropolitan Council,
as you may know', has to approve all grants that have any regional
s�gnificance prior to the federal or s�ate agencies considering
them. The purpose of this meeting, whlch was attended by Mr. Paul
Brown and Mr. Ed Wilmes as well, was to check the availability of
funds for the development of such things as the Island of Peace and
North Park. At that time, Mr. Jacobson stated that the State of
Minnesota had received many hundreds of thousands of dollars more in
applications requests for LAWCON grants than they were able to fund
with existing resources. He also stated the LAWCON'� view at that
� txme was to put the emphasis on land acquisrtion grants rather than
development grants, on the theory that it is more important to
acquire tTie land be£oxe it escalates in �rice and becomes unavailable.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC �IEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 6
As you recall, we directed the staff to submit an application for a �
development grant for tne Islands of Peace. This �as rejected by
the State, basically because of the emphasis on land acquisition
grants and secondarily because the proposed buildings on Chase's
Island were going to be in a flood plain. As you know, we have now
turned the management of the Islands of Peace over to the Islands
of Peace Foundation and they are proceeding with the development
through the use of private foundation funds. You may ask why would
not private foundation funds be available for the development of a
nature center at North Park. The answer is that corporations and
foundations such as the Ford Foundation and others will make their
donations to agencies such as non-profit foundations for which they
can then get a deduction for income tax purposes. A donation to
a municipality would not qualify for a legal deduction for income
tax purposes. This is one of tr�e primary reasons why the Islands
of Peace group decided to incorporate as a foundation, so these
financing vehicles would then be available. I do not believe
that the City, at this point, can do that. We are talking in terms
of the City developing North Park as either a nature center or golf
course, and therefore will have t� use the financing vehicles
available to us.
I think the decision boils down to three or four key points:
(1) Should we follow the consultants advice for which we paid $11,000,
and he had spent a great amount of time and effort in preparing this
very comprehensive study for us. ,
(2) Should we consider building a nature center on North Park at a
cost of $SSS,000 for a first class facility which will then be
utilized by not only Fridley residents, but residents from all over
the Twin City area. This then would have the effect of Pridley
supplying a facility for the benefit of all of the Twin Cities.
Can we afford this luxury, and will the taxpayers of Fridley stand
for such a thing?
(3) Should we instead consider the development of golf course on North
Park that will pay for itself and eventually add a revenue source to
the City tor the support of other activities such as a nature inter-
pretive program, a recreation program, and activites for all.
It has been arguea that a nature center would benefit more citizens
of Fridley. If it will have that great an appeal to the citizens
of Fridley, I am sure that it will also appeal to the citizens of
B�aine, Anoka, Coon Rapids, and other communities in close proximity
to Pridley. It is also questionable whether the City could restrict
the use of North Park to residents, because the land was acquired
through federal and state funds. So far, nature centers in the Twin
City area have basically been free of charge operations, and we
would be breaking the tr nd if we were to impose a charge on it.
Conversely, golf courses, of course, are paid for by the people who
utilize the faczlity. Indeed everyone does not play gol£, �ust as �
everyone does not play hockey, or sofL ball, or go to a nature
center. I believe a gol£ course wzll give �r�dle� a balanced
recreational program, and T Esould therefore agree with the conclusions
p� the Brauer report.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC I-I�ARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 7
, I would like to hear what the citizens of Fridley have to say about
this now that we basically have both the Brauer report in and the
corresponding financial data. You know, wanting something and being
able to pay for it is sometxmes two dxfferent things. We all want
the best for everyone, but un£ortunately we are not able to afford
everything we want. T, therefore, am going to consider this matter
very carefully, consider the points I have stated to you tonight,
before I make a final decisxon on this very important matter facing
us.
Mayor Liebl called on Mr. Brauer from Brauer and Associates to present
his report.
Mr. Brauer said he would like to make a summary statement rather than
either go through the entire report or again repeat the summary
statement in the report.
Mr. Brauer said the area zs void of a nature center and also void of
a golf course. He listed the other possible sites for nature centers
in the Gity of �ridley which include Camp Lockslea, Locke Park, and
Moore Lake. He added only one area is not suitable and that would
be the Islands of Peace. Mr. Bruaer said the establishment of a
nature interpretive center should begin with education and this would
include a craftsman and tools. He said this is the only area where
� his firm had been working which did have alternative sites for such
a nature center. He said at the present time the esta�lishment of
a nature interpretive center is not a first priority item in the
North Park area. He said there would need to be some period of
awareness which would start with an educational process and this could
be done in Locke Park or one of the other areas.
Mr. Brauer asked if the members of the Councii had any questions on
wha t was in the report. Mayor Liebl asked how he had reached this
decision.
Mr. Brauer said he had employed the services of Mr. Norm Stone, Land
Management Specialist, and also Mr. Don Pondrick, Naturalist Specialist,
he said portions of their reports had been deleted because he did
not feel they were well qualified to make this type of recommendation.
He continue, this was the first report of this type and study done
by each of the men. He said he felt the experience of his firm was
more suited, and they did the study of the area.
Mayor Liebl asked how much of the natural life and setting would be
protected through the next 20 years considering the encroachment
of industry that surrounds the area? Mr. Bruaer said this life would
be restricted to the site itself because of the Urban development all
around the area. He said there would 6e Urban run off into the area
and even if this were to be treated and controlled, the long term
� water source �ould not be natural. He said large mammals could not
$e kept there. Air. Brauer sa�d tfiey could be kept in a managery type
of situation. He said xn the Rice Creek area drainage way, animals
cou�d stay for many years more than in North Park.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC I:EARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 8
Mayor Liebl asked what would be detrlmental to the environment '
by the construction of a gol£ course. He asked if this would be
a hazard or threat to the environment? Mr. Brauer said this would
not be a threat. Mr. Brauer said this would be no more a threat
than the urban development of the area. Mr. Brauer said it would
be some relief from the shopping centers and this type of develop-
ment of the area. He said it would reduce the wild li£e that is
there and there could be no nature interpretive center if there
was a golf course.
Mayor Liebl asked Mr. Brauer what the deciding factor was in reaching
the decision that the area should be developed as a golf course.
I-Ie said what would hapyen to the area in the next ten to twenty
years was a factor. Mr. Brauer said there would be a change in the
area and it would systematically be diminished in many ways. He
said the City is under pressure, but a nature center is not a
priority item He said there is only one other nature center in a
City of less than 50,000 people. He said the nature center in
Richfie]d was established with the cooperation Qf all groups and
interests of that City. He mentioned that there are state managed
and also privately managed centers, but they could not be compared
as only public facilities could be used in this case. Mr. Brauer
said the installation of the nature center in Richfield was not
at the expense of having no golf course in the area.
Councilman Breider questioned Mr. Brauer of his study of both a �
golf course and nature center would involve earth moving and water
control measures. Mr. Brauer said in either case, there would be
a need to impound some of the water. He said there would be no
way of not doing this, and leaving it in running streams as it is
now. He said there would have to be a holding area. He said in
time, the rapidly running water £rom the urban development of the
area would blast out the beaver dam. He said this water would be
easier to control in a golf course installation.
Councilman Breider asked if some type of structure could be used
to enforce the beaver dam. Mr. Brauer said the area would eventually
be all pavement and roofs, and there would not be a way to do this
with the run off water. He added, there would be no method of
controlling the flow to the beaver pond and dam. Councilman Breider
asked if this would be on or off the site. Mr. Brauer said on the
site.
Councilman Breider asked if some of the areas such as the prairie
would be left untouched if the nature center would be installed.
He asked how the ponding areas would be created. Mr. Brauer said
the topography of the area lends itself to such ponding. He said
there are small pot holes that could be filled and drained out
slowly. He said this wpuld take work and careful selection so not
to destroy the prairie. '
Counczlman Starwalt asked i�Ir. Brauex i� he Izad studied tFie latest
report from Ehlers and Associates. NIr. Brauer said Tie had.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 9
� Councilman Starwalt asked if he would have any quarrel with the data
that the operation and maintenance cost would be $91,000 without
principle and interest and this total would come up to $120,000. He
said this amount would have to be paid annually after the completion
o£ the obligation of the bond had been satisfied if a nature center
were used. Mr. Brauer said this information was taken from the Wood-
lake study and would depend on the amount of personnel and the program
desired. Councilman Starwalt said then, this would be a debatable
figure depending on the number of activities.
Mr. Brauer said in the MPIRG Report, they left out at least half of
the items that he felt would be necessary to establish a nature center.
He said he felt a fence wouici be necessary, a floating walkway would
be essential to study the marsh, and off site would have to be controlled.
He said a complete �ob would have to be done or the area would disappear
in this type of urban development.
The City Manager said he had visited Woodlake and would like to know
how this area would compare to the North Park area, facility wise?
Mr. Brauer said the structure in this center in Richfield was also de-
signed for community use, and would be much larger than what was esti-
mated for North Park. He said the remainder of the development would
compare. He added, the trails would not go into the marsh and there
would not be a need for the amount of dredging done at Woodlake to make
� the area manageable, He said the dredging that would have to be done
xn North Park would be for the purpose of creating open water, and
controlling the off site water. He said they would want to have a
floating walk that would take people into the marsh.
Mr. Brauer said the building would be three quarters of the size of the
one at Woodlake. He added, a feeding facility would be provided and
they had not planned a well. He said the plan would be to utilize the
water in the area rather than providing this artificially.
Mayor Liebl called on Mr. Ehlers to make a presentation on the effect
of each of the proposals would have on the City.
Mr. Ehlers said the presentation would be made by Mr. Seegar Swanson,
Jr., a consultant in the firm.
Mr. Swanson addressed the Council and said they had submitted three
separate letters on the North Park Financial matters. He said the first
report compared the figures for the golf course and nature center use
of North Park using the higher cost figures for either or both. He said
in the report of June 8, 1973, it was pointed out that the golf course
could be financed with gross revenue bonds and the City has the power
to use these without going to an election. He said th e revenue could
be retired without using any other funds. He said the revenue would be
retired within 20 years and the additional capital could be used for
� add�tional improvements on North Park. Mr. S�anson said in the other
�re� pr �n the event a nature center �s constructed, this would
re�uire a general obligation bond that would require an election. He
said both studies were scheduled £or retirement in 1994.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING AZ�ETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 10
Mr. Swanson said after the bonds are paid for in the case of a nature '
center, there would Ue a cost to the average home o�*ner of $15,86 per
year for the operations and maintenance of the nature center. He
said this would be 1.3 mills. Mr. Swanson said some or all of this
cost may be taken care of by Federal revenue bonds.
Mr. Swanson said the second study supplied the figures for the lesser
amounts in the Brauer Report. He said it also showed the impact on
taxes of the lesser projects and also a study on the proposed use of
Locke Park as a nature center. �4r. Swanson said the Locke Park site
as a nature center would come to $14,6G per average home owner in
Fridley per year. I-Ie said these figures were computed the same as
they had been in the North Park s�udy of the nature center. He said
fzguring the lesser amount for the nature center in North Park would
come to $15.25 per home owner.
NIr. Swanson said the total amount of revenue for funding available
is $400,000. He said he did not know the amount of State funds
available. He added, these figures are not available. He said included
in the study are figures assuming SOo of the funding would come from
Federal funds and 25o from State funds, using the same information as
in the other runs. Mr. Swanson said this would reduce the annual 1.3
mills to 1.1 or 1 mill. He said the $15.86 figures would be reduced
to $13.42 and the $15.25 figure would Ue reduced to $12.20. He said
this would be a difference o£ $3.66 per year between the most and '
least costly of proposals. He said if the State and Federal funding
is sought, the pro�ect would be subject to review by the County Board
and also the MetropoliYan Council. He said if the pattern of the past
repeais itself on reimbursement, it would take two to three years to
oet final Federal approval. He said this would tie up the City's
resources. He said no one can guarantee the program would be funded.
Mayor Liebl asked if the figure of $400,000 for funding was the amount
to be granted for the entire state? Mr. Swanson said for all of
the state and for all of the park purposes.
Mayor Liebl asked if anyone from the Council had any questions.
Councilman Nee asked if there was any evidence the golf course would
be run at a profit rather than a loss? Mr. Swanson asked if he meant
what would be the recourse if the case was that the course did not
generate enough funds to meet the costs of the gross revenue bonds?
Councilman Nee mentioned several courses that are operating in a
manner that would not allow a profit. He said there are also other
courses in the quadrant.
Mr. Ehlers said he and Counczlman Nee had discussed this point before
the meeting. He said this study for the City of Frzdley and the con-
struction of the course would not require revenue bonds. He said all
of the figures fox the establzshment o£ a golf cpurse xn the North
�ark axea �eet a one to oae ��y�ent. E�e said the Cxt�� alxead� owns
the �and and the revenue �ou1d not have to pa� �or th�s.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETTNG OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 11
� Councilman Nee asked if there were any in Minnesota making a profit?
Mr. Brauer said one of the idiosyncrasies of municipal accounting is
,�hat you can make it come out any way you want. He said the Fridley
study does not show a profit for ten years. He said what is called
a profit would not include the cost of the land. He said public and
private businesses are not figured the same. He referred to the golf
course in Edina stating they only made $8,000 and paid up all of
their costs.
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Mr. Brauer said there may be one factor that would make this deter-
mination differ, and in two cases that he knew of the courses that
were too old to accomodate enough play to make them pay.
Councilman Nee referred to the liquor store operation and said they
are making a profit after paying for all of the e'r.penses, he asked
Mr. Brauer if the City could expect this from the golf course. Mr.
Brauer said yes, he had pro�ected a figure.
Councilman Nee said he would like to hear tahat the people in atten-
dance at the meeting had to say. Mr. Brauer said he can get the
public figures 6ut not the private.
Mayor Liebl said Senator Schaaf, Mr. Ed Wilmes, Mr. Elmer Olson,
and the Minnesota Public Interest Research Group had requested time
to address the Council.
Mr. William Kirberger said he is an area businessman and had been in
the area with the company for five years. I-Ie said he would like to
recommend the City follow the Brauer Report, and at the same time
as management in the Company, he would favor both. �Ir. Kirberger
said the industry has had a spiral increase in taxes while the State
said there would be a reduction because the use of the 4a sales tax.
He said there has been an increase of 10% in the land and building
property taxes. He said there had been increase of 7o in the last
two years.
�lr. Kirberger said he could only reinterate that he would be in favor
of a program that would be self supporting and also pay for some
hther things in Fridley.
Mr. oliver Erickson, 6056 Woody Lane N.E., said he has been a resident
of Fridley for fifteen years, a member of the Planning Commission for
seven years and he favored a golf course. Mr. Erickson said the City
can also have a nature center. He said he recalled when the YMCA was
proposed for the area by Moore Lake. He said this had been a long
campaign. He said there are other areas for the nature center, like
Locke Park. He said he did not like being told how to think one way
or another by a neighborhood committee.
Mr. Erickson said a great deal o� money was spent on the report and
he had hoped the Council would listen to the xecommendation.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING M�ETING OF JUNE 25, 1973
Mr. Robert Barnette, 541 Rice Creek Boulevard,
of the City of Fridley and would like to go on
a golf course. He said he felt there could be
was more suited to the golf course. He said he
that would pay for itself and other things.
FAGE 12
said he is a resident
record in support of
both, but this land
would like something
Mr. Harry CroGader, 146 63xd Way N.E., said he is a resident of Fridley
and a tax payer. Mr. Crowder said those present at the last meeting
on the issue had heard his views against a nature center. He said
when this issue came up, he felt there was the possibility of being
in the middle of the road, not a11 wrong or all right. He said he
believed the issue could be compromised. He said when they had the
hearings by the committee only one side was ready and the commitcee
had voted and reached a deadlock. Mr. Crowder said he thought the
golf course could finance the nature center, butthis nature center
would have to be on another site because this would be the only site
available for the golf course. Mr. Crowder said he hoped that the
City of Fridley would provide both.
Mr. Robert Olmstead, 6850 7th St. N.E., addressed the Council and
stated he had been a resident in the City of Fridley for fifteen
years and was also� a tax payer. He said he would s�mpl� want it
to go on record as wanting to make money,rather than raising the
taxes. He said �hen the Clty could go to plans for the nature
center. He said he plays golf once a year if he is forced to.
Mr. Leon Madsen, 561 Rice Creek Terrace, said he had been a resident
of Fridley for 18 years and after reading the Brauer Report, he
became very interested in nature centers. He said he was not aware
of the question of quality in the construction of such a facility.
He said if the City could go along with Anoka County and plan a very
comprehensive center, this is where the City should put its support.
Mr. Darwin Dahl, 245 Stonybrook Way, said he was a businessman and
also a tax payer. He said he was in favor of a golf course. He
added, tie currently spends from $2D0 to $400 on golf a season and this
is outside of Fridley. He said the City of Coon Rapids is proof that
a City of 30,000 can support a golf course. He mentioned the cities
of Albany and Greenhaven and how they make an impression when driving
through them because of the gol£ course. He said he thought the
City really needed a golf course and the £unds could be allocated
to the nature center a£ter this.
Mr. Ray Sheridan, 1301 Hillwind Road, said he had been a resident of
Fridley for quite some time and he had been a member of the Council.
A4r. Sheridan said he would support a revenue providing use of North
Park. He said he concurred with the opinion of Mr. Leon Madsen,
and would hope for County participation in such a pro�ect. He said
he felt the County could support the pro�ect better than the City
could, He added, the City of �'ridleY contributes 30% of the County
tax dollaxs and the xemainder o£ tTie cities of t�ie area should con-
tribute their share for such a program that would be used by the
entire area. Mr. Sheridan said he would urge the Council to support
the utilization of North Park as a golf course.
,'
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228
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING M�ETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 13
� Mr. Myrle Rice, 442 Rice Creek Boulevard , said he was a resident of
Fridley and is 100% for a golf course in North Park.
Mr. Loren Glatzmaier, said he is a businessman in Pridley and is very
much in £avor of a golf course.
Mr. Red Torrey, said he thought the City would need both a nature center
and a golf course. He added, he thought the advice of the consultant
who was an expert, should be followed as the advise of the doctor and
attorney are followed. He said the consultant had been asked for
his professional advice. �r. Torrey said the tax expense should be
taken into consideration and compaxed to the expenditure. Mr. Torrey
said he was in favor of a gOlf course.
Mr. Don Harstad, said he had been in business in Fridley for 24 years.
He a�ded, he plays golf two times a year, and when he is in the fairway
it is accidental. He said he scores 118 and is usually in the woods
and water. A4r. Harstad said he would iavor a golf course. He added,
after the construction of the golf course, the businessmen in the area
should get hehind the ladies of the League and support the construction
of the nature center.
Mr. Richard Dittes, 6291 Riverview Terrace, said he had been a resident
of Fridley for twelve years. He said he �hought Fridley was the Edina
� of the north and should have a golf course. He said the people who are
in favor of nature centers could spend a few dollars and create a
nature center in their own back yards. He said he had spent some money
for flowers and seeds and has a very ni�e nature center in his own
yard. He said he sees every spec�es of bird in his own yard. Mr Dittes
sald a nature center could be established in other areas in Fridley and
they would not have to be as extravagant as the Richfield or Carver
centers, but would probably be beyond what the projected expense is
because of inflationary pressures.
Mr. Robert Wanzong said he is a resident oI Fridley and also a business-
man with a manufacturing company in Fridley. He said the business had
stood on the grounds that they would back up the study and they would
favor a golf course at this time.
Mr. Roger Larson said he had been a resident of Fridley for nine years
and is a nature lover. He said he would support the construction of
a golf course in North Park,
Mr. Donald Weeding, 247 57th Place N.E., said he is a realtor and had
been a home owner in Fridley for ten years. He said the County is
going to do a study on the feasibility of a nature center and he did
not see that Fridley should go ahead and independently support a pro-
�ect such as this. He said the tax payers of Fridley would have to
build and maintain the natuxe center and he could not see this. �r.
� Weedxng continued by saying the people are concerned about their taxes
and if they continue to rise, they,will move to other areas. He said
the installation of the golf course would raise funds for the City.
Mr. Weeding said he had been in the real estate business for four
years and he has transferred many people who wanted to reside close to
a golf course. He said he had never been asked if there is a nature
center close to the proposed future homesite. He said he would favor
a golf course.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 14
Mr. Robert Schroer, 490 Rice Creek Blvd., addressed the Council, Staff, '
and his valued customers, saying he had been in busYness in Fridley
and a tax payer for fifteen years. He said he believed the golf
course would be an asset to the community and a nature center could
be established in another area of the City. He said he woixld like
to go on record in support of a golf course.
Mr. E. R. Olson, 5361 Horizon Drive, said two thirds o£ the County
tax dollar is contributed by Fridley and he felt that the County could
develop a nature center which would allow for a return on the taxes
and also provide a community development. He said the nature center
would loose its effect with the development around it.
Mr. Duane Prairie, 489 Rice Creek Terrace, said he was a member of
the North Park Committee and agreed with the fandings of Mr. Brauer
in h3s report. He said the firm had arrivad at the decision unbiasedly.
Mr. Ed Wilmes, 6350 Riverview Terrace, and Chairman o£ the Islands of
Peace, said he would like to square away some facts concerning the
Islands of Peace. He said this facility�'is not only for the handi-
capped, but also for the public. Mr. Wilmes listed the many persons
and organizations presently donating their time to the facility. He
said the area had been studied by the Uni�ed States Forest Service,
the Conservation Department, and also the Department of Interior who
had determined this would be a nature study area. He stressed the
facility was for the use of the public and also the i�andicapped.
Senator Dave SchaaF, said he had been a resident of the area since
1957, a representative on the North Suburban Sanitary Sewer District,
and a reporter for Sun Newspapers. He said he thought the best use
for the area would be a nature center. He said he thought the study
should have included some input by the people. He added, the MPIRG
study brought outthis point. He said being in the Legislature, he
is aware of the demand for this type of land use of the resources in
the Metro area. He stressed the importance of protecting the environ-
ment. Senator Schaaf said the best physical use of the land would
be for a nature center. He said he would not advocate the use of
Locke Park for a nature center. He said the fundamental question
would be of the £unding of the nature center. He said the reports
by Ehlers and Brauer had advocated that the golf course would pay
its own way. He stated some of the other factors in reaching the
determination that a golf course would best suit the area. He
added, there are other sources of funding for such a project. He
mentioned the comtination of efforts of the surrounding communrties
6y making this a County pro7ect. Senator Schaaf said there could
be special taxes on items such as cigarettes for funding such a
pro�ect. He said he would also like to authorize a bill for this
purpose in the Legislature. He said there are always items up for
vote in oCher Legislative areas and he would favor this action in
his area. Senator Schaaf sazd tllere are thousands of dollars
S�ent �n other axeas and he �ould like tp have something to ask
for in his area. He stressed the need the conservation o£ the natural
resources and said a nonprofit organization may have to be formed to
finance such a project. He said if this was done, the foundation
could seek funding from private organizations. He said this area
should be explored. He said also, the golf course would have to be
developed in the area utilizing the entire area at one time, but the
1
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SPECTAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973
PAGE 15
G�,�
�,,, . �
nature center could be developed as the funds are available. He added,
the City would not have to spend a half a million dollars at the pre-
sent time.
Senator Schaaf said the mazntenance costs would also have to be considered.
He mentioned the YMCA had offered to assist in the maintenance of the
nature center.
Senator Schaaf
to provide some
center could be
many zoos.
said the School Districts could be contacted and asked
financial support to the project. He said the nature
maintained by the charge of admission such is done in
Senator Schaaf said another possible method of funding would be to draw
boundries and create a subordinate service district for the L-acility.
He said he knew of other areas where this had been done and he thought
this could be done for North Park. He listed the area communities
who could be within the boundries and sazd this would be a nominal
burden to each of them.
Senator Schaaf referred to the advertisement in the 1oca1 newspaper
in which it is stated that the park land is a 1oss. He said this is
not the case, He stressed the importance of conserving the natural
resources. He said according to netro p�lls, this is the type of
land use the people want. He said he did not think the tax payers of
Fridley would have to finance the pro�ect, thexe are many other alter-
natives.
Senator Schaaf said there are other areas surted for a golf course
and he would favor the utilization of the nature center in Nor-�h Park.
Mayor Liebl said he would like to make one statement in answer to the
remarks by Senator Schaaf. He added, the current tax structure in
Fridley has come about through eight years of work on his part and
other members of the Gouncil. He said he hoped Senator Schaaf dld not
spend the Fridley tax payers money as freely as he was indicating at
the present time.
Mayor Liebl called on the chairman of the Nature Center Boosters
Committee, Mr. Adolph Kukowski to make a comment. A member o£ the
audience said he would not be in attendance until later in the meeting.
Mr. Leonard Samuelson, 7800 East River Road listed some of the questions
of the�area such as the availability of the area, young people to use
the nature center without bussing and the buffering of the area from
the abutting industry. He said he would look at the economics of the
matter and would favor a�olf course.
� Mr. Charles Sheridan, said he is a resident of Fridley, a Uu�inessman
�,n the axea and tIie pxe�ident of the Chamber of Commerce. He said he
had studied the matter of the golf course and nature center in Fridley
for some time. He said he had thought it would be best if both could
be provided. He said they had agreed to support the results of the
study. He said the Chamber had also favored a method of funding the
study so the City would not have ha� to pay for it He said he was in
favor af following the results of the findings of Brauer and Associates.
� ��
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING NIEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 16
Mr. Dave Harris, 470 Rice Creek Blvd., said he has been a resident
of Fridley for fourteen years, had served on the City Council and
had also served on various subcommittees and also has been a member
of the committee when it was formed that they would support the study
and what was in the best interest of the City. He said at the last
meeting of the committee he was in favor of delaying the formulation
of a recommendation to the Council to allow for the gathering of more
information and also more study.
Mr. I-Iarris said they should keep an mind the number of reports that
have been prepared by the Pederal Government on funding and also the
enviromnent. He referred to a Washington Newsletter which pointed
out that there is $120,000,000 available for golf course funding.
Mr. IIarris concluded stating he definitely supported the utilization
of North Park with the construction of a golf course.
Mayor Liebl asked if the other members of the committee would like
to comment.
A4rs. Lee Ann �porre, 301 Ironton Street, said the League of Women
Voters had studied nature centers £or about two years. Mrs. Sporre
said she was a member of the ad hoc North Park Committee and a
member of the Environmental Quality Commission. She �aid the League
and the Environmental Quality Commission favored the support of the
nature c�nter. She said accordzng to the report done by Brauer and
Associates, any green area can be utilized as a nature center. She
said the c�oice of terrain should be considered for its natural
undisturbed nature. She added, North Park would come ihe closestin
this respect. She said once �he golf course is installed, there is
no turning back, but with the nature center, it could be changed
any time. She mentioned the area could be used as a nature center
at any point in the development, but the golf course would have to
be completed before any use could be made of the land.
Mrs. Sporre said all persons could use the area as a na�ure center
and only a very few could use it as a golf course.
�Irs. Sporre introduced Mr. Dennis Asmussen of the Research Staff of
the Minnesota Public Interest Research Group, and said he would be
speaking as a staff inember.
Mayor Liebl referred to the title of the report done by MPIRG,
"Land Use in Fridley: The Politices of Birdies", stating he did not
believe this to be humerous. He said he was speaking for the citizens
of Fridley and this was a very critical remark. He said he would like
Mr. Brauer to have a chance to expound on the remarks in the report
as the group had commented on the Brauer report.
Mx. Asmussen said h�,� grou� had been invited to revze�r the Brauer
Repart. He said he Iiad also thought this was a serious matter and
those who had been involved in the support of either utilization
had also thought it was a serious matter. He said much time and
effort had gone into the report.
'
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� ��
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 17
� Mr. Asmussen said he would like to begin his presentation with an
apology £or the errors in the report. He pointed out the various
items to be corrected. He said the estimate for the utilization for
a nature center had been an off the cuf£ estimate that had been obtained
by telephone in December of 1972 and this was a lower amount that was
used by Brauer.
He said he could not agree with the Brauer report in the demand need
issue. He said he also believed some sort of questionnaire should have
been offered the people of the area for their input. He mentioned
the petition which had been signed by over 3,000 people and favored
the support of the nature center. He said he had not seen any other
documents, but there were a number of different ways to determine the
demand of the area. Mr. Asmussen sa�d the number of courses within the
ten mile radius cannot be used accurately to consider the demand factor.
He sited examples of this factor.
Mr. Asmussen referred to the physical standpoint of the North Park
area and said they were able to obta�n copies of the original con-
sultants reports, done by Mr. Stone and Mr. Fondrick and said they
had recommended a nature center for the area. He said Mr. Brauer had
only used statements by each of the men, not their entire report. Mr.
Asmussen quoted portions of the Stone report in which a nature center
was recommended and said this had not been indicated in the Brauer
' report. He read portions of the Fondrick report that supported the
utilization as a nature center.
Mr. Asmussen saad Senator Schaaf had handled the matter of the economics
af the matter quite well. He said the nature center could attract many
funding sources. Mr. Asmussen said the Woodlake nature center does
receive donations of money and equipment.
Mr. Asmusse n stressed his feeling that the Brauer report did not
adequately assess the demand factor and that there had not been any
survey made on the use. He said this would be a rare opportunity for
a nature center, on land that is most suited to this use. He referred
to the area in which Woodlake is situated. He added, this area was the
only area remaining for such a use and it was developed for a natu�re
center, �nd Fridley has a�ump on this iactor.
Councilman Breider referred to page 23 of the report and questioned the
cost estimate used. He said the water control facilities and fencing
had not been added to the estimate. He said if these features were
included in the estimate, it would bring the two figures in line. He
said this would bring the �"99,000 up to the $300,000 figure used by Mr.
Brauer. He said they had tried to reduce the costs, but the sewer
system could not be eliminated.
The City Manager said he would like to comment on the matter of polling
� £or public opinzon. He saic7 diffexent answers are obtained Uy asking
questions such as this. He said you �,*ould get a da.fferent answer if
you ask "would you like a nature center in Fridley", and "would you like
a nature center that cost "x" number of dollars for each property owner
with a$35,000 homein Frzdley." He said he felt the people should be more
informed on the matter before any survey co�zld be ta::en. He added, to
this point there was not enough information and perhaps there in not now.
At least now, he said, the matter could be defined. They would have to
be able to express some directlon on cost.
�2(�
SP�CIAL PUBLIC HEA�2ING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 18
Mr. Brauer said he had talked to Mr. Asmussen previous to the present '
meeting. He said one thing does bother him and was the Islands of
Peace could not be used as a nature center. He explained that the
statements made by Dr. Breckenridge were diffi.cult to make a decision
on as Dr. Breckenridge sees something good as a nature center in
every site.
Mr. Brauer said the mention of Metro funds had been made. He added,
there are 77 sites that are being considered for those funds and
North Park was not one of them. He said the MPIRG report did not
say that North Park was not one of the alternative sites for this
funding. Mr. Brauer said one of the best possible sites for the
nature center would be the property of the arsenal, and this would
create ten North Parks put together. He added, this would be a
fantastic piece of land, and the MPIRG report had not mentioned this.
He questioned if North Park would stand on its own merits as a
nature center if the other areas develop a nature center.
Mr. Bailey Tiller, 1535 Gardena N.E., said he had been a resident in
the City of Frid�ey for 33 years. He said he did not think the Council
had any business being involved in a matter such as this. He sazd he
would favor a golf course, and the reason for this is that when the
people pay taxes, they should get some benefits. Mr. Tiller mentioned
the area between Gardena and I#694 and said the animals were being
lost in that area and 3D years from now, the area would be a slum. '
He said the spending of thousands of dollars is fine for Nixon, but
a hardship to the City. He suggested getting some Federal monies
to preserve the wildlife in the area. He said he thought those who
could afford to play gol£ could drive to Columbia Park or Anoka.
Mr. Edz�ard Fitzpatrick, 5273 Horizon Drive, said the proponents of
the golf course say the area should have both a nature center and a
golf course. He said he would agree with this. He said he could not
see Locke Park as a nature center. Mr. Fitzpatrick said this area
already has a use.
Mr. Mark Marcucci, 7441 Lyric Lane, said according to the Brauer
report, a nature center could be almost anything and would run up to
$400,000. Mr Marcucci qixestioned Mr. Brauer on the point that the
Islands of Peace could not be used as a nature center. Mr. Brauer
said a goorl naturalist would use this resource for explaining the
flood plain. He said the City has already an area in which such
things can be studied and would not need two. He said �he areas
are just a few miles apart.
Mr. Marcucci asked Mayor Liebl if people from all areas would be using
the golf course. Mayor Liebl said all people would be using each of
the proposed uses. Mr. Marcucci said the cost factor should be con-
sidered. It would not cost the public anythingto walk thxough the
natuxa center. Mayor Liel�l sai,d the nature center �*ould not be £ree, �
all of the tax payers wvuld &e paying for the developmez�t, mainten-
ance and staff. Mayor Liebl �aid they would have to research other
financial means to support such a pro�ect. Mr. Marcucci said, then,
all the peopie would be paying for the project.
� �!
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING i�EETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 19
� Mr. Marcucci said he had lived by Locke Park all of this life and this
has become surrounded by industry and railroads. He said this could not
be used as a factor against the North Park area as a nature center if
the recommendation is for Locke Park and this has already been surrounded
by these things. He questioned what would happen to all of the picnickers.
He said he thought the majority of the people should decide.
Mr. Dean Caldwell, 5874 Hackmann Avenue, said two representatives from
the League of Women Voters had made a presentation to the Frirtley DFL
on the use of a nature center in North Park. He added, after the pre-
sentation, a vote was taken and 25 members favored a nature center and
none opposed the nature center. He said one abstained from voting.
He said a unanimous vote is unusual for the DFL. He said he would like
to support a nature center. He added, not because he does not want a
golf course, but because there is an increasing deterrent which includes
the air we breathe. He said the City should preserve its natural resources
for posterity. Mr. Caldwell stated he thought there was a true natural
area in North Park.
A student from Anoka Ramsey Jr. College said she had an interest in the
utilization of the area because of the short distance from the campus.
She said she was concerned about the short comings of the Brauer report
in that there �Jas no complete attitude study. She said the demands
of the area had not been sought. She continued saying the nature center
� could be established with a lesser cost than was indicated in the report
by Brauer. She said the golf course would cre,�te revenue, but this would
be a completely irreversable decision. She said, tragically, cities
axe made for profit not for people.
Mr. Roland Anderson, a biology teacher who has been in Fridley six years
said he supported North Park as a nature center. He said this would
provide use by all ages and physical uses. He questioned if the best
things in life are free when the City would pay such a high price for
clean air and water. He said at this time he thought the matter a
question of values with the dollar being the prime consideration. He
said if the nature center would be developed, he would be happy to
contribute his share of the costs and he �aas sure others would feel
the same.
Mr. Les Parker, 1056 South Circle, said he has been a resident of Fridley
for ten years and was in the middle of the funnel when it went across
the creek. He said all of this land could be used as a nature center
but, it there was to be a golf course he would favor an 18 hole course.
He asked if the course planned would be an 18 or 9 ho=e course. He
said he favored a nature center.
Mr. Brauer said it would be an 18 hole course.
Mr. Parker said the nature center would provide a place for the adults
� and school sLudents to go to study the natural resources. He sazd he
hrould pay the y15 or $20 a year £ar this installaticn. I.e said there
are a lot of people that play golf, but they could play in other areas
He said before a decision is made, he would ask the Council to find
out what the people want.
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 20
Mrs. Carolyn Gross said her husband is a tax payer. She said she and ,
her children had passed out the circulars in support of the nature
center. She said she thought this is wIiat the government is all
about, the ability to voice ones opinion.
Brother Thomas Sullivan, Grace High School, addressed the Council
stating the other School Districts in the area had been consulted
concerning the utilization of the North Park area, but Grace High
Schoul had not been contacted. Brother Sullivan said he was a bio-
logy teacher in the school with an enrollment of 950 students. He
said the North Park area is the best suited parcel of land for the
nature center and he hoped the City Council would consider the need
for the Grace High School students. He said the students had come
to this decision on their own and he felt his duty as a teacher was
not to manipulate the minds of the students, only to present the
facts to them and make them aware of the consequences. Brother
Sullivan said he made the students aware of the financial facts
concerning the golf course and the nature center and they favored
the construction of the nature center for the North Park area. He
said he would agree with the statement by the City Manager concerning
the polling of the public on the matter. He said the facts had to
be brought to the surface before the people could take a stand. He
said if the people of Fridley are allowed to make the decision, they
will live with the consequences.
Mr. Carl Seegar, 324 Ironton St. N.E., said he is not a tax payer, ,
but he is a citizen. He asked the members of the Council if they
had ever visited the North Park site after a rain? He asked them
before they decided, he hoped they would go out to the area and look
at it very carefully. He added, he knew the area better than any-
one, and he fa��ored a nature center. He expressed concern at letting
Brauer tell the Council what the area was all about. He again asked
them to visit the area, he said they would like it.
Mayor Liebl said the members of the Council had all visited the area.
Ms. Myrna H�ellming, 8351 Terrace Rd. N.E., said she is a tax payer
and a student, although she is not a resident of Fridley. She said
she is a member of the Board of MPIRG at Anoka Ramsey and she uses
North Park for activities such as picnics. She said the residents
of Spring Lake Park had not been mentioned in the study and she was
sure they would be willing to participate in the matter. She added,
she would like to see that area remain as beautiful as it is at the
present time.
Mr. Kenneth Sporre, 3D1 Ironton St. N.E., addressed the Council stating
he had been a resident of the City for ten years. He said up until
this time he had not expressed his own personal feelings on the North
Park utilization. He continued, saying the reason he had purchased
his home in the area t�*hexe zt j,s, is that he had Iieard there would '
be a golf course in the axaa. He said FLe t�ranted to live by the Country
Club Style golf course so he could play golf more often. He said he
has changed his mind by watching his children interests. He said his
son knows more about nature than he does from visiting North Park.
2`��)
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SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF SUNE 25, 1973 PAG� 21
' As a father, he added, he would like to see a nature center in the
area. Mr. Sporre said he is tired of hearing the amount the installa-
tion of the nature center would cost, when to take his family golfing
it would cost $16 for only one time on the course. He said he would
like to see some wise spe7iding and have the area saved for a nature
center. He said he is willing to drive to another area for golfing.
A9r. Bernard Fashingbauer, 110 Suzanne Ct., St. Paul, Direc�or of the
Warner Nature Center, addressed the Council. He said he came in good
will to offer suggestions to the Council as his community had gone
through the same procedure eight years ago. He said this was the first
nature center in the State of Minnesota. He said 'there area school
students that travel 70 miles round trip to visit the center. He
added, this is quite an expense. He said the demand for the nature
center is unbelievable. He said they are open every day and have
people on the waiting list. Mr. Fashingbauer invited the Council to
visit the nature center and thanked them for their time.
Mayor Liebl asked how large the area of the nature center is. R4r,
Pashingbauer said it is 350 acres. He added, they buy every acre
they can. He continued saying they will buy overgrazed pastures for
$800 per acre. Mr. Fashingbauer said they receive volunteer help
from housewives who donate a day a week to the center. He said there
are about 75 ladies and they do a first class �ob. Mr. Fashingbauer
' said he felt the center is doing a first class job.
Ms. Lisa Treuenfels, 5248 Horizon Drive, said after a recent rain she
found a deer track in North Park and made a plaster cast of it. She
said the beaver in the area are not bothered by passing trains. Miss
Treuenfels said the area is pretty.
Mr. Ed Piersak, 625 Fairmont N.E., said he has lived on this side of
the river all of his life and remembers when all af Fridley was a nature
center. He said he is opposed to the government always spending his
money for recreation. He said he has only played one game of golf in
his life. He added, if people want to study nature, they can drive out
to Carlos Avery Game Farm. He questioned if a nature center is needed
when there is already one close, Mr. Piersak said he questioned if each
community should develop such a center creating six to ten in the area.
He said that Senator Schaaf has mentioned the money could be obtained
from the County and State, but, the citizens also contribute to the
County and State.
Mr. Plersak said he did not want a golf course and he would like to see
industry or commercial development in the area to raise money for the
City. He said if there has to be a choice of either a nature center
or a golf course, the golf course would be closest to industry and a
revenue producing activity, so he would support thls over a nature
center. Mr. Piersak said his taxes had increased $100 the last year.
� He said he did not think the community of Fridley was big enough to
sup�pxt the 140 acre na�uxe center, but the go1F course taould be se7f
su�porting.
LJ��\�
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 22
Mr. David Maier, 6802 Hickory St., said the needs of twenty years �
from today should bethought of. He said the future generations will
benefit from the creation of the large North Park area as a nature
center. He said he could understand the feelings of the businessmen,
as their responsibility is to prosperity. He said the Council should
also consider with the fuel shortage, it will not be as easy to drive
to the Carlos Avery area for nature studies. He said North Park would
be used as a nature center. He said if if would come down to the
dollars and cents factor and a revenue sharing use, this would not
be best. He said if it is the concern of the City to develop a
revenue producing area, they should make the area commercial or
industrial. He suggested the area be divided in half, one half for
a nature center and the other half for a golf course.
Mr. Mark Nobel, 7310 Lyric Lane, said he had made an independent
study of the North Park area. Mr. Nobel read a letter which was
addressed to himself and written by Professor ponald B. Lawrence,
University of Minnesota, dated May 23, 1973. The letter is a short
report of Professor Lawrence's three hour examination of the North
Park area. Mr. Nobel continued his presentation by saying the City
should look for some already cleared land for a golf course. He
said the statement by T9r. Paul Fjare of Brauer and Associates that
there is a lack of birds in the area is not true and he referred
to statements in the MPIRG report and other reports which dispute
this fact. He said the studies which he has quoted would indicate '
that a nature center would bring enjoyment to all.
A4r. Brauer questioned the complete support of one utilization over
another by some of the references made by the nature center supporters.
He mentioned the reference letter from the Sierra Club saying since
this had been listed as catagory B in their priorities, he said this
recommendation would be debatable. He also questioned the cost
estimates of the MPIRG report listed as Baird's Estimate for nature
centers and questioned if these estimates were correct and also if
D4r. Baird gave his support.
Mr. John Jensen, 6070 6th St. N.E., said he has been a resident of
the City of Pridley for sixteen years and would like to ask Mr.
Brauer if he would construct the golf course or nature center? He
asked if the firm could make a bid?
The City Manager said this had been discussed at the outset of the
study on North Park and the firm of Brauer and Associates had not
been disqualified from making a bid on the pro�ect. Mr. Brauer said
he is not a contractor, he is a designer. Mr. Jensen asked if there
would be money involved. Mr. Brauer said he hoped so.
Mr. Mike Chies, addressed the Council and said his father was a mem-
ber of the Chamber o£ Commerce and.a builder in the City. He said
the Chamber has gone on recoxd in support of tFie gol£ couxse. He ,
said t,ritfi the background o£ bus�ness in hi.s £amily and lia`s interest
zn administration, he has not known wflat to do with his otan future.
He said he is not against a golf course, but there are many consider-
ations with the rapidly growing interest in outdoor activities such
as bicycling.
�
,
�
� f� J
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEAP,ING MEETING OP JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 23
Mrs. Jan Seegar, 324 Ironton St. N.E., said she was a member oF the
ad hoc North Park committee. Mrs. Seegar introduced Mr. Don Fondrick,
naturalist.
Mr. Fondrick addressed the Council and stated the involvement of the
area school students should be a concern in this matter. He said money
for the nature center would be donated by private concerns. He added.,
if the area did not prove to be feasible as a nature center, it could
be changed to a golf course some time in the future.
Mrs. Shirley Caldwell, 5874 Hackmann Ave. N.E. asked if the Woodlake
Nature Center employs pro£essional people? Mr. Fondrick said there
are people with professional training, and many volunteers He said
they employ one naturalist, one secretary and one half time naturalist.
He said the center has been visited by 18,000 people this year and this
figure could not be broken down by age groups. He said there is a
growing number of people all the time. He added, the center was aided
in its funding by Hennepin County with a contribution of $200,000 for
the pro�ect. He said at this time the center agreed that the facility
would be used by the public. He said three days have been set aside
for those in Richfield and two days for those outside the area. He
added, weekends are for general public use. Mr. Fondrick said the
students from Fridley are being bussed to the center at the present
time.
Mr. Charles Sheridan said it would not be an accurate count by a number
of students who attend the center from school, he added many of the
students also attend scouting tours to the area also.
The City Manager suggested the school districts in the area be contacted
for their support in an area nature center. Mr. Fondrick said the school
district in the area has not contributed any financial support, Uut
they are receiving the assistance from the teachers and a monetory
value cannot be placed on this type of assistance. The City Manager
asked Mr. Fondrick if he believed the school districts should assist
in the funding of the nature center? Mr. Fondrick said yes, he had
contacted the school district and asked them for their support. He
said the salary of a naturalist would come to about $10,000 a year.
Mr. Darvin Dahl said he disagreed with the statement that a golf course
would only be for a select few. He added, many young people are
involved in golf.
Mr. Kenneth Sporre sa�d he disagreed with this as the beginner cannot
and should not play on the golf course. He said there are 11 persons
on the school golf team out ef thousands of students. He said the
beginner and learner should play on the driving range. He added, the
University of Minnesota refuses to allow those who are beginners on
their course. He said the proper grip and swing should not be learned
on the course. He said a£ter the £undamentals are achieved, then
and pnly then should someone plap golf on the cour�e.
A x�sident said there are only twenty-one boys and nineteen girls out
of 3,000 on the golf team.
���
SPECIAL PUBLIC H�ARING �EETING OF JUNE 25, 1973
Mr. Darvin Dahle said the Brauex report dealt with the
the golf course or nat��re center. He said those who do
car can feel they should not be taxed for highways. He
are many who have no use for a nature center. He asked
using the Woodlake facility?
PAGE 24
suitability of
not drive a
said there
how many are
A lady in the audience said it takes two years to get into Woodlake.
Mr. Dahl asked how many o£ the other communities with golf courses
have a lower tax base? He said many people are down to a four day
woxk week and there is a greater demand for recreational activities.
He added, he could not believe that there are those who could visit
a nature center once a week. He said he thought the study done by
Brauer and Associates is comparable to asking the opinion of one's
doctor or attorney, it should be followed. He said after the need
for the nature center is established and it could be £unded by ihe
golf course revenue, a second class center would be better than
�othing at all.
Mr. Dahl said the nature center would employ only two people, but
the golf course would employ many and be self supporting. He said
this would not be taking anything away from the people. He said if
the people have to vote on this there may be nothing at all.
Mayor Liebl said he had talked to thousands of people and he knows
what the working man wants. He said the people on pension cannot
afford an increase in taxation. He said the people of all income
levels have to be thought about and represented. He said if they
have to ask the people, they will. He said first of all, they have
to have good solid ground with a great deal of information. He
said the City is gaining the necessary information, and the Council
was not going to rush into anyt'r�ing.
Mayor Liebl said he would like to take some time to investigate the
possibility of receiving financial aid from the County, State, and
Federal Governments before any decision is reached. He said there
are those in Fridley that will support projects such as these and
some that do not care, all they care about is that their taxes are
not raised. He said he knows of many people that trust him to
watch out for such increases for them. He said he will n�ver dis-
appoint those people. He said the Council will consider the matter
on a cool and calm basis with all the necessary inputs. He commended
the members of the audience on their mannerly presentation of ideas
to the Council.
�r. Kenneth Sporre questioned if the facility were created by the
utilization of LAWCON ftmding, would the restrictions of their regu-
lations only provide for a construction of four walls and a ceiling?
He added, there is also a statement in the report that sa�d there
is a possibility o£ acquisition o£ addxtxonal land £or the gol�
course. He said a club house ccauld not be built �ith tha regula-
tions placed on construction under LAW'CON funding. He said if
the acquisition of more land is necessary, would the City seek
this type of funding?
,
,
L___I
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973
PAG� 25
�� �� <)
rJGfa)
� Mr. Brauer said it is the use of HU➢ funds that places these restrictions
on the type of installation. He said there are not many restrictions
with the use of LAWCON funds, He said the only restriction would be
that the money is used for recreational purposes.
�
Mr. Sporre questioned if some green fees would be used to provide
improvements on the facility on the physical land. Nlayor Liebl said the
memo received by the members of the Council and himself that evening
explained there are few restrictions on funds from i,tIWCON grants and
these funds could be used for the establishment of a golf course.
Councilman Nee said there are very few places in the Brauer report where
there is information available that can be checked for accuracy. He
referred to page 79 and said the amount listed for assistants salary
should be $15,000 rather than $7,00�. He asked what the determinTng
factors were in quoting a building size and price? Mr. Brauer said he
had figured $25 to $30 per square foot. IIe added, this would include
furnishing the lab, administration, exhibits, lavatory, etc. He said
he was talking about a building of about 4,OOD square feet.
Councilman Nee asked how many people would be employed by the program
and what the hour basis would be. Mr. Brauer said this may be ten hours
per day. Councilman Nee quest�oned if this would mean 70 per week?
Mr. Brauer said this would depend on the effectiveness oE the people
employed. He said he had gone by the figures of the Woodlake nature
center. He said what is gained by this amount would depend on the
efficiency of the staff.
Mr. Fondrick said at the nature center he manages, it is open 118 hours
per week. Councilman Nee asked if this would also relate to the number
of hours the staff puts in? Mr. Fondrick said there are two ways of
considering the hours factor. He added, the center is open more hours
than the building. Mr. Fondrick said the center is open according to
the sun light. He said the nature center is opened early in the morning
by the maintenance man.
Councilman Nee asked what was the nature of the proposed golf building.
Mr. Brauer said this would be a public facility, not a country club.
Councilman Nee said $1D0,000 is a lot of money to spend for a snack
shop. Mr. Brauer said he was only speaking of a public building and
this could not be compared to a country club.
Councilman Nee said he did not feel the school board's had made any
statements in the matter of the utilization. Mr.Brauer said the board's
would not make a statement. Brother Sullivan said he should not feel
left out as the other school board's had not had any input on the matter.
Mr. Brauer said he felt that the
decision and the decision was not
� �tas his opinion of what was best
t�as hired as an expert. He said
tFie scFiool di�stricts. He said he
ha�� calls from many people to get
has been no lack of input.
City had hired him to make an impartial
a political �udgement. He said this
£or the City of Fridley. He said he
he [�ta5 not able to get the input from
has contacted many individuals and
the public input. He stressed, there
����
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING h4EETING OF JUNE 25, 1973 PAGE 2b
Councilman Nee said Mr. Brauer must have made his decision on or �
before April 18, 1973. Mr. Brauer said he had no actual date that
he had reached a decision. He said the City of Pridley needs a
naturalist and program of support for such study and information and
this should be worked out. �
Councilman Nee said according to the matrix study, a nature center
is the best use. He said the consultants had said this was also
true. He added, the school districts say a nature center would be
best. He said there are a number of factors leading in this direction.
Mr. Brauer said the matrix study is highly subjective. He said at
the area of the Woodlake nature center there was a struggle to get
the land natural. He said this property was less dense than the
North Park area. He said his firm had tried to be as comprehensive
as possible. He said they had suggested the Locke Park for a nature
center because it was not suited for a golf course. He said they
had worked within the requirements the City had given them. He said
he has said this many times, the North Park area is the only area
in the City that is suited to a golf course. He said the tools for
the nature center establishment are very important. There should be
education in this area for that purpose first. He said if both
cannot be established, he thought the City should have what is better.
Councilman Nee said he had a hypothetical questinn. He said Mr. '
Brauer had suggested Locke Park be used for a nature center, but
another use is committed to it. Councilman Nee continued by saying
what if this option did not exist, what would Mr. Brauer have suggested?
Nir. Brauer said he would have said the same thing because there are
five to six other sites that could be used for a nature center.
Councilman Nee said this is like saying golf can be played at Moon
Plaza. He said he wanted a clear statement on the best use of the
land. Councilman Nee said the statement that the City can have both
a golf course and a nature center is a"cop out" on the part of
Brauer.
Mr. Brauer said his intention would be to get a fine nature educa-
tion program started in the City. He said the City needs a naturalist
and some of the City Parks would be utilized as nature centers. Mr.
Brauer said this is the first community he has worked for where there
is a choice. He said this is also the first itme there were so many
people with opposing views on utilization. Mr. Brauer said when
working in other communities, all persons with varied interests get
behind the desirable utilization and procluce a firm support. He
said the construction of the golf course in North Park would provide
the necessary funding for a complete nature study program and also
provide for a first class nature center. He said he would like to
see some unified support. He said he did not beliEVe there is a
demand £or a nature center j,n tIie axea or the School Bpards r�ould be �
in suppoxt oF a nature center. He sa�d tliere is just a�e�r ver�
dedicated people in favor of a nature center.
�
SPECIAL PUBLIC HEARING MEETING OF JUNE 25, 1973
Councilman Nee said he is aware of the question
through the City in six campaigns and has never
a golf course. He added, no one has asked him
�iJ
PAGE 27
of demand, he has walked
had anyone ask him for
for a nature center either.
Mayor Liebl said some people are happy with the report and some are not.
He said the City should sit down with the County to look at the proposals.
He said the state should also be asked to participate. He said he has
talked to many people and Brauer and Associates has the best possible
reputation as an expert planning consultant. He said the City would also
have to get the input from the school districts on their possible support.
Mayor Liebl said the City of Coon Rapids has had some support from the
County in the completion of their golf course. He said the Ramsey
County area is considering the acquisition of 300,000 acres for a nature
center pro�ect. He said if the Council is unable to make a decision,
it would have to be left to the voters next fall. He said he personally
feels a golf course would not be a deterent to the environment. He said
they have to be responsible for the financial aspect. He said the
Council will also be responsbile for finding out what the people are
willing to pay for. He said they have to decide if they want a Cadillac
or a wrecked Ford. He said if the decision is for a nature center, he
would like the center to be more than putting a trailer oia the property
and fencing it. He said if this is done, Fridley would be the laughing
stock of the Metro area.
� Mayor Liebl said they would also have to �ustify the installation of
the golf course. He added, he has three girls and three boys and they
all love nature, and he did not think they would be playing golf. He
said he is responsible for the thoughts of the senior citizens and the
working man and the man who owns a cottage. He said the nature center
would have to be approved by the people in a vote if other financing
�s not obtained for it. He said he realizes the City has to fight the
State for every traffic light they get. Mayor Liebl said there are many
people who are concerned with the tax dollar.
MOTION by Councilman Starwalt to receive the letter from School ➢istrict
#14 in regard to the North Park utilization. Seconded by Councilman
Nee. Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, Mayor Liebl declared the motion
carried unanimously.
MOTION by Councilman $reider to ad�ourn the Special Meeting of the Fridley
City Council on North Park. Seconded by Councilman Starwalt. Upon a
voice vote, all voting aye, Mayor Liebl declared the motion carried
unanimously and the Special Meeting of the Fridley City on the matter of
the utilization of North Park ad�ourned at 12:30 a.m.
Respectfully submitted,
�� �.�=
� �atrj,cia Ell�s
�ecxetaxy to the City Council
n�.u.� .�'�. .�.�e
�rank G. L�ebl tiia or
, Y