Loading...
PR 09/23/1974� ,� ����rrF� nF �F RFr,ui aR,�ARKS AND REGREaTtnrv rOMMISSION h1�Ei ING, �PTEMBER 23, 1974 _. . Nfeeting was called to order at 7:30 p.m, by Chairman Blair � MENSBERS PRESENT: Blair, Caldwell, Harris, Peterson �4EMI3L-'RS EXCUSED: Wagar --� OTHERS PRESENT: Byxon Butters, 260 67th Avem.ie N.E., Fridley, 560-5299, President, F.Y.F.A. John Saccoman, 5460 7th Street, N.E., Fridley, 550-6942, Football Official � Dan Iiuff, 2365 Valentine Avenue, St. Paul, 644-4162, Naturalist/ Resource Coordinator Paul Brown, D�.rector of Parks and Recreation Department Judy Wyatt, Secretary to the Commission . . : �� .� . Mr. Brown stated that there was an inquiry made by one of the Councilmen in respect to a situation that we had one evening when there was a•double hea.der scheduled and it rained during the first game and then it stopped raining and the second game was cancelled. He said there was some misunderstanding as to why it was cancelled. � He said that based on the F.Y.F.A. rules, technically the second game should have been played except for the simple reason that during the first game they lost three bulbs due to the rain. He mentioned that it really was kind of a sprinkly evening, and Mr. John Saccoman,. the football afficial, made the decision not to play the second game and so informed the two coaches. They felt that the second game should have been played and subsequent3y went to one of the councilmen's house and complained. � Mr. Blair asked Mr. Brown if we had a policy regarding cancelling a game at night if there is rain during the day. Mr. Brown stated that we simpl.y had the "poor weather" policy, which is that if it is raining during the day, the decision is made after 3:00 p.m. whether to cancel that evening's game. He sai.d that tlie office controls the decision until 3:00 p.m., then it is up to the officials. Mr. Blair asked Mr. Saccoman what the official's responsibi.lity is during rain. Mr.. Saccoman stated that it is the official's obligation to turn off the lights during the rain because bulbs break. Mr. Peterson said that whether to play or not in the rain is another decision but the decision was to make the field like ali other fields by putting shields on the lights, and that we haven't done. He said that that was what was talked about last year to be done for this year. _ Mr. Brown stated that that was not decided by the•City, however. He said that was the Football Association's decision. I-Ie said that they went out and got sofne prices and found them to be quite exorbitant. Mr. Blair asked A4r. Butters what his feelings were on this problem. Mr. Butters stated that somec�ne circumvented him. lie said that he is in Mr. Bro�an's office almost every day and he did not come in with a complaint any day at all. fie said that h1r. Brown brouglit thi.s up because naturally it had to be talked about. He said that they talked about it and there was no formal complaint by him. He sta±ed that /'1 he called Mr. Saccoman late that same night, at 10:00 p.m., and he just informed Mr. Saccoman when the game had to be rescheduled, and he didn't discuss with him at that time anything about the cancellation. hir. Butters said that they talkecl about it one otller evening later. � �` frY� , Minutes of the Parks � Rrecreation Commission Meetir,g, September 23; 1974 Page 2 Mr. Butters said that if he could just go back and reconstruct the night as best he can he would like to do so. He stated that since the football season has started, that was the only night he llas not been there, as he had to work late and he could not make it. He said that he was travelling in his car from Roseville to Blaine, from 6:25 p.m. to 6:45 p.m. The first game started at 6:00 p.m. and during that time it was misty and as he was coming this way there was a slightly heavy cell of heavier mist and drizzle that came through, and he said that that must have been at the time the three bulbs went, with the top bulb on each of three poles. He said that the bulbs are six to a pole in a triangular design, one above, two below, one in the middle, and two below; and it was the three top bulbs that happened to go, with the drizzle. There was a little �bit of a breeze and it blew the drizzle into them. He said that he presumed this was when it happened. He was not positive because he wasn't there. fie presumed that it must have been during that heavy cell that.they went. He said that must have been somewhere before half time of the first game. He said that then, from as much as he could see, or has been told, the lights were turned out and the second hal.£ of the game was played. He explained that some- time during the second half he talked to both of the Cub coaches who were to play the second game, and they said that some kid who they did not know came and told them that the second game probably was going to be cancelled. They, not getting the information from one of the authorities, thought nothing of it; they kept the teams around because they thought they would play. He went on to say that they told him that the rain stopped at 7:20 p.m. and that it rained no further. Mr. Saccoman mentioned here that he personally talked to the two coaches at half time and i.nformed them that the riext game would not be played. � Mr. Butters said that he got to the field himself at 8:00 p.m. and it was all dark, so�he checked everything out; one gate was left open so he locked it and checked the shed for all the equipment, just to make sure that everything was closed up well. He mentioned that he turned the lights on about two minutes after 8:00 p.m. and left them on until he left, which was about 8:25 p.m. so they were on for that period of time. He mentioned that when he was there, what little breeze we had was gone and there was absolutely no rain at that time. He said that he walked the length of the field twice from one end to the other and the field was not muddy, not even hardly mushy at all. He stated that he didn't consider it unplayable at all. Mr. Harris asked if A4r. Butters was in essence saying that the lights weren't used for the second half at all. Mr. Butters replied that he wasn't going to point the finger at anyone because he felt that he was partially to blame because he wasn't there, but he said that he couldn't be there every night. Mr. Butters went on to say that he felt that i.t was mistake to cancel the game, but as far as he was concerned it was water over the dam and Paul Brown and he had talked about it. Mr. Butters stated that from what he has been told, the lights were turned on at 5:30 p.m. by someone other than an official. He did not know who, as he had not been able to fi�id out. He said that normally we don't turn on the lights until half time of the first game, as it really isn't necessary. Mr.Brown asked who was representing Mr. Butters that night. He asked who has his keys. Mr, Butters replied that the keys were hanging on a special hook Minutes of the Parks � Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974� Page 3 th�t h� ha� �n th.e conces�ion trailer. Mr. Brown asked who he gave them to, and Mr. Butters replied that he.had not given them to anyone; he simply took them over �here and placed them on the hook. • � Mr. Peterson br.ought up the fact that he �vas upset after our last meeting be- cause one of our referees is running a fast clock. He said that this policy was not in agreement with the rules and that this cast very serious aspersions on the whole program; that someone outside the Parks and Recreation and our Director de- cides to alter the conditions under which the whole thing is conducted. He said that he was sorxy that they were talking about it tonight this soon afterwards without giving themselves a chance to do some studying on it. He felt it gets to be an exercise in futility to come down here and sit on the Parks and Recreation with all the thir►gs that are going on, and here .is someone who is ostensibly working for Parks and Recreation circumventing things like this and then they end up with a meeting like this and they reall.y aren't going to accomplish anything, so he was sorry that it was on the agenda tonight. He said that he was very disturbed by the minutes and by what went on last meeting and they sit and talk about whether or not they are going to put a chainlink fence around someone's yard, and someone from the Plamiing Commission comes out and says what the policy is going to be, and so they sat down here for an hour talking about it and really it should have been accomplished by someone who is working for the City. He said it seemed to him that they had the impression that the City employees run the City for their benefit rather that the City employees running it for the benefit of the City. Ke went on to say that the Football Association is a pretty large part of our City and working with quite a few bo�s, and to run roughshod over something that they have done, he didn't think, showed good concern for the citizenry or the City. He said that he was very upset about it. He said that he didn't blame the coaches for going to the councilman, because they don't get action out of them because they don't even talk about it in ��heir meetings. He said that they don't get involved in it and they're not going to put up with it and so therefore he did't blame them for what they did, and he didn't know about it until he heard Byron tell about it. � Mr. Harris commented that the fact of the matter exists that the programs, whether it's the hockey program, the baseball program or the football program, are run for the benefit of the kids, not the benefit of the association, whichever one it happens to be. He said that recognizing that the program is designed for whomever is participating in it, he gets concerned about two things happening. He mentioned that he wasn't at our last meeting so he asked to be excused for proba�ly speaking in generalities. He said that it's not really a general thing when you think about the safety factor that is involved when the kids are play- ing. He said he'd seen it happen where he'd been up there at the hockey rink, for example, and the weather had been inclement; the ice was melting and black dirt showing through the ice, and he was up there to either have a practice or a game, and he has refused to put his kids on the ice, even though the program called for a schedule tliat night. He said that he felt the health and welfare of those kids was much more important, than someone coming out with a broken leg or ankle or some other kind of injury, that that type of condition would warrant. He said that he imagines that same kind of condition happens in football. He said that there must Ue situations that do occur that maybe aren't spelled out the way they should be under policy, indicating what is the determining factor for the safety and health of the participants. He said that is what they should be concerned about, and maybe the policy is lacking, and maybe it is up to this committee to help these M�nutes of the Parks � Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 4 groups determine what is a sensible and reasonable way to determine what should be done on that basis to make certain that we are protecting anyone from an injury. ^ �,, Mr. Peterson said that the question of injury was not the issue, but whether the field is played on or not. He felt that whether the field is played on or not is the Parks and Recreation Department's decision. He stated that the question they were talking about was that the Football Association, just like the Hockey Associa- tion, has certain rules and regulations under which it's operating, for instance line changes and length of game, and the referees, etc., decided to run fast watches so that they have not been abiding by the rules and regulations that have been in effect between the Association and the Parks and }tecreations Department. He felt that whethex it was good, bad or indifferent, it was agreed upon, and it wasn't the referee's decision to decide not to abide by it. He said they were running fast titnes because they felt the kids were staying out too late. He said that maybe they were staying out too late but he felt that was the parents decision to complain or the Parks and Recreation to complain not the people who are paid to run the game because you destroy some of the intregity if the referees aren't following the rules. Mr. Harris said that if the lights were broken, he would be concerned about the kids falling on the glass and hurting themselves. Mr. Butters explained that the glass was not on the field. � • Mr. Peterson asked what the cost was to put shields on the lights. He felt that this cost should be put in the budget. Mr. Peterson stated that he felt football is an all. weather sport and that you don't call games because of weather. He said that it was a poor policy to call � a game because of weather. � Mr. Saccoman replied that he agreed with Mr. Peterson in that footbal.l is an all weather sport to a certain extent. He said that to high school kids, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen years old; college kids, twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two years old, and adults playing football, it's an all weather sport. But, he asked, is it really an all weather sport for a ten year old kid to be out to 9:00 at night soaking wet in a freezing drizzle? He asked if this was iahat we wanted for otir kids. He said he didn't know if he wanted that �or his youngster, and he didn't know if any- one else iaanted it for their youngster. Iie said that football was a good game but he wondered if it was an all weather sport, where a ten or eleven year old kid is going to be out in the kind of weather we have in the fall in Minnesota, when it can rain and be very cold and windy. Mr. Harris stated that this was the policy that had to be executed for this season, but that policy wasn't sacred.- He said that maybe some other determinations have to be made to clarify it, and maybe there are other conditions, as Mr. Saccoman said, w.ien the temperature is of such a nature that that's it, we don't play. He said that we don't schedule hockey gaanes sometimes either; we listen to WCCO and tell the kids when it's below 0°, don't show up. Mr. Butters stated that he now goes up to the field every night, opens up the light Uox and leaves it up to the officials to turn on the lights when necessary, and he then turns off the lights�afterwards. � � Mr. Brotivn stated that the policy this season has been to decide after 3:00 p.m. whether or not to cancel a ga�ne.� After 3:00 p.m. the coaches call the Parks office and discuss th� decision. T9inutes of the Parks $ Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page S Mr. Peterson suggested that this be put on the agenda for January. He stated that �"1 the Football Association can then have ti_me to talk about it, and they'l1 have time to study the rules and regulations, so that they'I1 know what they're talking about �` when they ask questions. He said that if the referees want to have their input they'll have time to do so. He mentioned that they would also have time to get some costs on the shields. MUTION by Pe.tet�san, �eeande.d by �a�vu�, �hcc� �h.i� be �u� vn �he agenda ��n Janu.atcy. The ma�,t.an ecuvr,�.e.d. MOTION by Pe,ie�r�san, �ec�nded by Ca.2dwe,P.2, �h.a� �an �he ne�s� ab �h,i�s .�ea.san Mn. Btcown maFie �he dee.i�.�an bebane �� 00 p. m, whe,the�. �a p.P.a.y ��. na� cvs �atr. a,d �ao�ba,P.e .i� eance�cned. The ma�an ca�v�.c:ed. Mr. Peterson stated that if it clears up after 5:00 p.m. that's not Mr. Brown's fault, and until they did that for Babe Ruth, they just had all kinds of hassles. He said that when the decision was made that they had to call the office before 5:00 p.m., and if Mr. Brown said, "No play", and the sun came out at 6:00 p.m. everyone understood it and went about rescheduling and they didn't have any arguments with anyone. Mr. Blair asked for any discussion on the motion and Mr. Butters had a question. He stated that he didn't worry about Mr. Brown, because they communicate with each other very well, but he would like some lines of communication on the day of the game. Mr. Brown said that it would be a cohesive judgment. He mentioned also, that we will have to get out this information to all the coaches. � Mr. Peterson stated t}iat last year they sometimes had as many as four games � H�hich involved eight coaches, two for each game, and hc didn't know if it was Cathie who took the calls, but they had no problems of getting communication after that policy, because they called the office and if Mr. Brown said, "No game", then the coach called his kids. He went on to say that then they didn't have kids standing around in t}Ze rain as they had in the past, because they all knew�ahead of time whether or not they were going to paly. Mr. Butters agreed with this policy but asked that we change the time to be from 4:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. so that he can check the field and talk with Mr. Brown before the decision is made. Mr. Brown brought up the fact that we have spent a lot of money, time and effort in fixing up our field. He mentioned that other communities have come over to look at it and use it as an example of what a field should be. He said that other counciln�en have come over to the City Hall mad at him because they have to go see our field, because they are being pxessured to duplicate it. Mrs. Caldwell asked if this football policy was an interim thing. Mr. Peterson replied that the motion was made to put it on the agenda in January. She wanted to know if this became policy, could it be thrown out at the January meeting. Mr. Peterson explained that the motion, which did pass, was only for the remainder of this season. 1: C 1 _: n Dr. Dan Huff was at the meeting to meet the Commissioners and answer any questions they might have regarding liis program. Mr. Blair thanked Dr. Huff fo.r coming and asked him what his program was and what his responsi.Uilities were. Minutes of the Parks � Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 6 Dr. Huff replied that right now he only has two programs in the department, and �supposedly the potential is for quite a bit of growth in the department in the .�environmental area. He said that the original pragram that was proposed which initiated the approval and creation of this position and department was for a Nature Interpretation for the City. He said this would be held on public lands that would be park lands and other city and county lands in the City that would be deemed appro- priate for natural history education. He went on to say that he was enlisted to first assess these and propose the objectives for a Nature Interpretive Progxam, then to pro- vide a budget, to propose implementation measures and then to implement the program. He said that the first step was a look at all the park lands we have and an assessment of the natural areas we have that would be appropriate for this, and that led to the description of each of these areas which are in the proposal. He said that the second part was then to actually propose a system of natural history areas which would be designated by resolution as natural history areas and therefore protect them somewhat from further development in the future. He said that they would be declicated for a cause and that.it is obvious that that dedication could be changed in the future if it were to becpme necessary. He said that without some sort.of dedication for natural history, the future is very bleak for undeveloped property in a rapidly growing residential area. He mentioned that without some sort of guarantee that these areas will be protected, it's hard to come up with a Nature Interpretation Rrogram with a base to work on in the City, so this is the first step in the Inter- pretation Program. He said that that is for the designation of certain areas and that this is simply a proposal in the six areas that would be most appropriate to designate as natural history areas for this program, which would be developed later. He went on to say that generally tlie program would be one of maybe one or two � full time people, himself included, perhaps a secretary, and a lot of volunteer help, for nature trail guides, bird watching trips, etc. Dr. Huff stated that these different areas would be developed over a period of time, as far as the improvements are concerned, to have trails which would maintain heavy foot traffic and still not damage the natural flora and fauna; bird observation and photography blinds would be built in some areas, interpretive signs would be used throughout all the areas, self-interpretive signs so that interested people could go through each of these areas on their own and have nature interpretive guideposts along the way. Dr. Huff said that the development of the A-frame building up in North Innsbruck would be for the Visitors' Center, which would be used perhaps only on an interim basis depending on the decision about the North Park question coming up in November. He said tha.t it may be that if the Nature Center is supported, that within a year or two there may be a permanent facility developed out there, and therefore free the A-frame building that is in North Innsbruck. But, he continued, in the meantime it would be to develop that area first as the natural history area and the Visitors Center with film showings scheduled of nature wildlife, to develop other types of � displays there, such as taxidermy, wildlife, pressed plant collections, natural flora and fauna collections from the area. He said that all sorts of lite.rature would be available; they will set up a schedule whereby the children from the schools could be brought over to see films, to talk to the Naturalist, to walk the nature trails, similar to the tiVoodlake operation, but on a smaller scale. He said that this would ^ be the first, and the reason for the six ar�as is that each provides a unique separate type of natural flora and fauna, from the oak woods up at North Innsbruck to the roll- ing sand dunes at East Moore Lake, the prairie plants that are found in the sit-e we call Banfill Prairie, which is just a spot that t11e City owns. � Minutes o� the Parks �, Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 7 Dr. Huff went on to say that the Island of Peace (Chase's Island) is a very /� characteristic site £or floodplain .forests, maple, as}�, elm, cottonwood, etc. He said that each one is di£ferent and each provides its outn educational opportunities ' for ecology, and therefore the six of them provide a system whereby a series of different learning measures that each o�e of them can accomplish a tremendously wide area of natural history education. Mr. Peterson asked Mr. Brown if the City Council had yet acted on the Parks and Recreation Commission's resolution regarding Dr. Huff. Mr. Brown replied that the �ity Council had received our minutes from last meeting but there was no official action taken. Mrs. Caldwell asked Dr. 1-iuff where he would receive his manpower and he replied that he got it from the budgets for this department which had been set up and approved by the.Eity Council. She asked him if he was a separate department, to which he replied that he was. She asked then, how they would coordinate with him their plans for the recreation uses with what he plans. Dr. Huff replied that there would be very minimal Goordination needed. He said that these areas are natural areas that have not been developed for intensive park use. Mrs. Caldwell asked Dr. Huff if any of his plans conflicted with the Parks and Recreation Department's plans for the parks. N�r. �etexson stated tha,t fiE �elt tlus �ta� o.ne o� the xeasons that some o� the Commissioners last month made a motion and sent it over to the City Council for J'� action, because they felt that there are certain overlaps between Dr. fiuff's pro- gram and the Parks Department's overall long range program. He said that at least he felt that there was a definite overlap, and that there should be a line of commu- nication. Dr. Huff asked if he meant beyond the North Park question and Mr. Peter- son replied yes. _ Dr. Huff explained that be£oxe he pxoposed anrtfii,ng ox sent anytfiing to any� one regarding the use of park land he contacted NIr. Bxo�rn and talked to him about it. He said that just because he isn't in Mr. Brown!s Department doesn't mean that the two of them don't have to be completely coordinated on anything that has to do with park lands. He said that if I�e went to Mr. Qureshi with plans for the use of one square inch of park property, Mr. Quresfii would ask him if he had talked with Mr. Brown. 1-Ie said that what good administrator wouldn't, and therefore why wouldn't he do it in the first place? He said that that would be like his going to Mr. Qureshi and asking if he could use a police car tomorrow. Dr. Huff went on to exp3.ain that be�ore this �lan r�ent to anyone it �tas dis-. cussed inhouse among the City Hall administrators in the City government, and Mr. Brown had two very viable concerns and these were incorporated into it and we had his approval. Mr. Brown explained that the Commission felt that th�y have the xight to add or del�te; that they might have some ideasof their own, and that it went to the City Council before they saw it. Dr. Huff replied that it was sent to everyone at the Same time. � � � Aii !'eterson stated that it was pxetty hard £or hi,m to com�rehend how You can have 1«., use of natural history development or parks and recreation or however you're :;king about it, of undeveloped lands and have two separate departments Minutes of the Parks � Recreation �ommission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 8 operating it, because this is what y.ou are going to have. He said that he £elt ^ that this was the feeling of the Commissioners at the last meeting when they passed a resolution and passed �t on to the City Council to take and examine. He felt there �. were bound to be conflicts. Mrs. Caldwell concurred with this. S�e �elt th.at Dr. Huf�'s conce�t might conflict with the Parks Department's ideas. Dr. Huff explained that i£ he had gone about �t �n exactlY� the same �a� except had not sent it to the City Council, then they would have had it, the Environmental Quality Commission would have Had it, the Planning Commission would have ]iad it, and all these Commissions would have been looking at the proposal. He said that the only other�reason that it was mailed to anyone was because the City Council wanted to know what he had been doing, and he had given them a list of objectives and the first one was to make this proposal, and therefore, Mr. Qureshi and he discussed it and Dr. Huff asked Mr. Qureshi who it should go to at that point. He told Mr. Qureshi that he would like it to go to the City Council so that they could see what.he was doing. Mr. Qureshi told him that as long as he was sending it to these other people to go ahead and send it to the City Council simply for . their information. Dr. Huff stated that the original mailing to the City Council showed carbon copies had been sent to Environmental Quality Commission, etc.. He said that he wasn't trying to pull anything over anyones eye. Mr. Peterson stated that the Commission didn't fiave any� argument w�,th Dr. Huff, but that they had an argument with the total conce�t of having a Naturalist outside the Parks and Recreation Department. He mentioned that he felt there were going to be conflicts. , � Dr. Huff pointed out that thexe are outlots and plats that are owned by the City and there is tax forfeit land that is owned by the Caunty, but other than that the only public lands that are usable in the City belong to the Parks Depart- ment, whether they're developed or not. He stated tFiat any new program wllich would be initiated and deemed important enough to be initiated by the City� Council would therefore seem to include the right to pro�ose the use of this land �hat is as yet uncommitted to be used for one thing or another. Mr. Harris commented that theix issue was not w�'th Dx. Hu�� but with the Coun , cil. He said that Dr. Huff had brought up the point that he f�ad discussed this ' proposal with Mr. Brown. He stated tfiat Mr. Brown does not necessarily represent the Commission, he represents the Commission as the policy makers for the Parks and Recreation Cormnission. He said that Mr. Brown does not establish policy, he admini- strated it, so that what Dr. Huff might discuss with Mr. Brown�unless it was a de- cision that had originated with this committee at some other time, and the policy had been set to say that okay, we've decided that Moore Lake Natural History area, which Dr. Hu£f has designated as item #6, was designated by that and we have no proposal for it, then he could implement that with Dr. Huff by saying our Board of Commissioners has decided that that should be set aside £or that particular purpose. He stated that he didn't think that that had been done. He said that he could see some problems, not between Dr. fiuff and Mr. Brown or the Commissioners, but a matter of knowing exactly what each other is doing. He said that if this commission is to set the policy for Parks and Recreation, then it has to be set for everyone's use whether Dr. Huff is going to use it in his �rogram or Mr. Brown ^ is going to use it within his program or whether the City decides if they want . to use an amory or a piece of property. He stated that it shoulcl be referred to that commission to find out what plans are made, what.ideas have been discussed or Minutes of the Parks $ Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 9 what proposals are imminent on �t so that none gets o�� on the �xong �oot. He sa�d that they don't want that to hap�en. He explained�that they want to work with Dr. ^ Huff, and make certain that he has the best program. He stated that he just thought �-, the Council made a mistake. He said that �e had re�erxed the Council to the Ordin- ance, because there is no way that they can do it because they are in violation of their own ordinance right now. Mr. Harris went on to say that he felt that the work that Dr. Huf£ had done so far on his proposal was certainly the start that he had to do in determining what is available and what he is going to use within his program. He stated that he had some question about it, not that he disagreed with what Dr. Huff had written, but he mentioned that he had some questions regarding Rice Creek for instance, and whether or not he had discussed it with the Rice Creek Water Shed District, and what plans they have for raising and lowering the �ater in that area. Dr. Huff replied that many of them have been coord�nated. At this point Mr. Peterson had to leave the meet�rig. Dx. Hu�� stated a£ter Mr. Peterson left, that ha should have answered a couple of his questions before he left. The first one was whether or not land can be managed by more than one group. Dr. Huff stated that that was just a funct�on o� your po�er structure where you decide who manages what part and.some sort of arrangement for coming to an agreement when there is a controversy. He went on to say that �£ you look at any park land that is owned by the State of Minnesota, the timber values are managed by one power structure, the Forestr� Department, recreation is handled by another, game and fish are managed by another, hydrology is managed by another, but they all work together to come up with a plan to get it done. He said there's no reason ^ why the Parks Department couldn't provide services of maintenance in a natural history area and he provide the expertise to train or to guide tours to develop trails to�develop signs and to oversee these tem�orary �eople �ho would do the work. Mr. Harris mentioned that he �as not at the last meeting but.had read the minutes. He said that he felt that making an analogy with what the State is doing and what the City is doing is not quite the same, He stated that we h.ave designated selected land within the community. He said t�at w�at invarably ha��ens here with a limited amount of parkland or with a majorit� of the parkland or an excessive amount, what- ever relationship you want to call it, you've got 24 acres in Innsbruck North and someone will come in and tell you that that is parkland and they want a swingset or tennis court or softball diemonds, etc. He said that is usually what happens. He said it won't be but about two more meetings before someone comes in regarding one of those parcels with a request. He said that if you take all the available land out of one segment and use it for one thing, then eventually this Commission is going to be in the position of saying it. doesn't have any land over there; it's being used by the Naturalist. He stated that he wasn't say�ng it shouldn't be used by the Naturalist, mayUe it well should be. Or, he.said, we're going to have to tell the peopl.e that we.do have land in that area but it�s not available to them so we'll have to acquire some additional land in that given area. He stated th.at this has happened, not because of Dr. Huff's department, but because other uses have been determined for park land. Dr. Huff explained that some land may be a marsh and not suitable for swings, etc. but might be a tremendous educational recreational facility. He stated that ^ was the reason he selected the six areas chosen. He mentioned that they are not all totally dedicated for one primary use either. He said that North Innsbruck Park, for instance, has a large area on the south side which will be filled in and have picnic growids. He said that the Banfill Prairie area is listed r.onditionally on their ��nding anotfier site close fir �ox a Tot Lqt and a commun�tr �ark. `Minutes of the Parks � Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 10 He said that the total aspect is conszdered for each one o� the sites� He stated that he wasn't trying to take park land from one authority, simply to � work with them for the wliole community. , ' Mr. Harris assured Dr. Huff that he understood this and that he did, in fact,. like his proposal but he had some questions regarding it. He asked Dr. Huff if his evaluation considered these six areas only, or if he was planning on additional areas in the future. Dr. Huff rep2ied that there was very little land left, but that they had looked at what else might be available in the future also. Mr. Harris asked Dr. Huif if he had any thoughts on Locke Park. Dr. Huff replied that there was so much other traditional use there already. He said that there were some things he would like to participate in, for instance, ski touring trails which would be carried out in the idea of winter ecology, winter nature trips which could be carried out along the creek, etc. He said that wherever it doesn't conflict with other uses of the park they have in mind the possibility of all sorts of programs in all the parks. Dr. F•Iuff pointed out that there were already plans that a portion of North Innsbruck Park should be a nature area, the Islands of Peace was already dedicated to remain an inviolate center and to serve everyone, etc. He said that Rice Creek, of course, has very little planned for intensive use or competitive athletic type use in that area; so it's a natural spot. He mentioned that North Park is going to be left up to the voters. He said that he has people calling him.every day asking him what he thinks should be done with North Park, and they think he should be able to tell them since he is the Naturalist. He added that he had spent ten years in education to become one and he should be able to give them an educated guess as to what is most appropriate for it. He said that he has a personal op- /1 inion regarding the park, which most people could probably figure out because of his background, but as far as. a plan for the City development, he feels if the City votes that it should be a golf course, who's to say that that isn't the best use of the land, and at that point he agrees with that. Dr. Huff said that there are other areas, not as adequate or as large a site; but they could maintain a very viable natural history progrvn. Mrs. Caldwell asked Dr. Huff if a golf course is decided on, would he reserve some small area there? He replied that he would provide what help he could but that would be very low on the totempole as far as a list of priorities go. He said that if the people want a golf course, we should give it to the planners who can develop a good one. He mentioned that it would be tremendous for cross country skiing, snoeshoeing etc. He said that it would not be appropriate for a woodlake type facitity. , Mr. Brown mentioned that there are even opportun�.ties for tiird watching on a golf course late in the evening. Dx. Huff agreed but explained that you don't end up with a natural situation. Mr. Brown commented that once L�r. Huff has the opportunity to educate our community and the surrounding communities, those people in his program will be able to come back; be.cause that is what natur� is all about; to teach as much as you can to a fe�a and then those become disciplesand go out and spread the word to ^ other kids in tlle neighborhood, and eventually you get a lot of people involved. Dr. Huff replied that his attitude at ttie present time is not one of trying to get followers; he is just trying to meet the demands of the people. He said that many of these people are world known authorities. !ie said that people whom , • o��. Minutes of the Parks F, Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 11 ^ he used to go and listen to.are no�t telling that he is tihexe they �ere 20 Years ago, and asking Tiim what he is going to do. He commented that he would be kidding �them a.£ he didn't tell them that one of the reasons that his department was created ' separately was because thexe is a large group of people who feel that the Parks Department is overprone to development: to pave, to make tennis courts, etc. He explained that maybe the natural impetus in a Park Department to provide all these facilities is stron�er than maybe it would be in a Naturalist to preserve a few unique areas: He said that that was one of the reasons that the politics got involved and the department was made separately from the Parks and Recreation Department. Mr. Brown responded that he could see the commissioners vie�rpoint though, He also pointed that that many of these things were purchased and policy set long�before he came on the scene. � Mr. Harris asked Dr. Huff if he was available to conduct his program outside the confines of the tangible boundaries. Dr. Huff.replied that he �aas. He said his job would be to expand beyond what opportunities they have here in the City and what assets they have and take.those in a wider area, etc., but those programs become more limited in the number of people and age groups who will use them, as opposed to a local area which will have a program that anelementary group can walk •over to a couple of blocks. Mr. Brown asked Dr. Huff to give the Commissioners a very quick dollar figure as to what he proposed for his 1975 budget. � Mrs. Caldwell asked if that would be out of the Parks and Recreation budget, and Mr. Brown explained that it was a separate budget. Dr. Huff stated that his personal services were just himself, (he said that he was the only permanent person in the Department) a secretary who is also tem- porary at the present time, two three-month employees in the summertime for the Naturalist Program. He then outlined his staff for the Shade Tree Disease Control Program which is his other program. He had proposed a full time person next year who would also be temporary (for a year) and two part time tree inspectors. He said that altogether the personal services came to approximately $50,000, to the best of his recollection as he didn't have his budget with him. Dr. Huff stated that i£ he made a little procedural mistake somewhere it might be a mistake to someone but not to someone else. Mr. Harris commented that Dr. Huff was not the one who made the mistake. Mrs. Caldwell said that she was asked to come and serve on.a commission because she would by making a decisions on parkland and she finds that anything they say to the Council doesn't mean anything. She said she is beginning to wonder why she is here. She commented that if (you people) can do it all better she thought they should stay home. She said that she was very busy. Mr. Blair stated that he still felt that the Naturalist areas �rere still parks and they should still go uitder the jurisdiction of this commission, and if they have to be educated in Dr. Huff's way of thinking then he was all for that, because ^ he enjoys nature himself. Mr. Brown commented that as long as Dr. Huf£ can see the viewpoint of the Commission that's the important thing. I-ie said that Dr. Huff is doing his best and that in all honesty, he and Dan have more than done their share of cooperating. € ..�� ^ Mi,nutes o� the �arks F� Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 12 He mentioned that they have tried to keep each other posted as to what the lines of communication are. He stated that Dr. Hu£f still has to work with the City Manager so it's pretty tough sometimes. Mr. Blair said that the question he is asked most is why Dr. Huf£ reports to the City Manager and he can't give them an answer. Dr. Huff replied that the City Manager would tell you that he's just not a Natu- ralist, he's a Naturalist/Resource Coordinator which means actually he's a depart- ment head, and being a Naturalist is just one part of his job; he also has other jobs which are not necessarily park jobs, but since he has the expertise as a Natu- ralist too, then he has that program, and he is going to coordinate that with Parks. Dr. Huff said that he could see why people would think it would be one way or the other. He stated that he didn't like to be in the middle of people thinking it, bu� as far as a working situation he said that he hadn't had any trouble with Mr.. Brown and he didn't envision any. He mentioned that Mr..Brown }iad two concerns with the �rogram, and hopefully, as Mr. Brown gets to know him better they can open up to each other more. He commented that if the Commission hears of anything indicat- ing he hasn't gone through their end before the proposal got to someone else, to give him a call and gime him a chance to get in touch with them and get their approval. Mr. Harris stated that he could only speak for himself but that everyone else felt also that they want to see Dr. Huff's department grow and be successful and be a viable entity within our community. I3e said that they are charged with the re- ��sponsibility and the ordinance does read that the Parks and Recreation Commission is set up for the purpose of setting policy, reconimending to the Council on Parks and Recreations compliance and procedures, etc., and they have an obligation to the citizens of Fridley. Dr. Huff commented that the first thing that was said on the Council when they got to this item on the agenda was what was this for and Mr. Qureshi and he replied that it taas just for their information at that point and their next question was whether or not it had been sent to the Parks and Recreation Com- mission. Mr. Qureshi replied that it definitely had been sent to them. Mr. Blair told Dr. Huff that they certainly appreciated the fact that he would � keep them posted on any ideas that he might have, recognizing their responsibility and that they want to work together with him. Dr. Huff replied that he would like the opportunity to have some broader realm within planning the parks in the future, and anything Mr. Brown would like him to work with him on now, as far as landscaping and that type of thing. He said that he would be kidding them if he didn't say he didn't have some personal feelings as far as being a department head because natu- rally it sounds better to hiin to stay that way than it would to become a part of parks. He said that any time they would like to discuss anything with him to let him know through Mr. Brown. Mr. Brown stated technically tlie Parks Commission is responsible for the park lands. Dr. Huff said that there was no reason why the natural history areas couldn't simply be a subdivision of a group of parks and they would still have control, just as they do on anything in any other parks. He said that it would simply be his in- ^ put to help them decide any questions which they might have on it, and his obligat- ion to provide th� im�lementatiori of the programs that they would approve. He stated that regardless of whether he is in the Parks Department or not, if it's park lands� which are concerned, and they are the ones responsible for the final approval, tliat's fine with him. G � • t�inutes o� the Parks and Recreation Commission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 13 � COMPOST PILE 0 0 Mr. Brown explained that the compost pile is in our 1975 budget, in the amount of $5,000. He said that this was for machinery to chop up leaves, etc. He said that this will be a city wide program, and instead of bagging up your leaves and putting them out for the garbage man, you can bring them to the compost pile and dispose of them. Mr. Harris asked if there were any plans on the drawing board yet. Mr. Blair stated that the Environmental Commission would be talking about it the following niglit, and they wan�ed someone from the Parks and Recreation Department to come to that meeting. Mr. Harris asked where the compost pile was going to be and Mr. Brown replied that it was going to be at Locke Park at the east end. SOCIAL BALLROOM DANCING Mr. Brown asked for some decision on the social ballroom dancing proposal. He stated that the fees for the lessons would be on a �ess expensive basis than the lessons given by several of the dance clubs in town. Mrs. Caldwell said that if the people want it, then we should give it to them. Mr. Harris commented that this is a self-supporting recreational function as the participants pay themselves. �t�TION b y Hajvu,a � eev v�ded b y B.2a,Ur., �a a�{� e�r. a a ei.a.e bu.�Qh.o om dan�i.ng �a .�he ne,��.- dev� a� �tu.dQey. The mv�',c.ov� ec�vr,i.ed. � PRESIDENCY - M.R.P.A. MUTI UN 6 y�Ia�vu:� ,� eea v�ded b y B.�a,vc, �a neee.�i.v e�he mema .i,n.��rrm�,ng �he C.i. t y a���e.i.c�s and �he eamm.vs�s�.�r�e�v� a� p�a�s�.b.�e e.�.ea#,t.an a� a.i�.eat�n �a Pne��.dev►,t-�ee,t a� zhe M. R. P. A. The mv�c:.vv� ccvuued. . SQUARE DANCING Mr. Brown commented that 1 ast week was our first session o� square dance lessons, which went very well. � ADULT EVENING SCHOOL Mr. Brofin said that this was the first time the school district had sent us a copy of their Adult Evening School bulletin. He mentioned that the schools were really starting to cooperate with the Parks Department in sending us their literature. KARATE Mr. Blair mentioned that there was some interest in starting karate classes. Mr. Brown suggested that we asked the gentleman to come to our Commission meeting and explain his program. b4r. Harris requested that we get more information on the classes first which they can discuss at their next meeting. �4�TIUN 6y Na�r.i.6, deeanded by 8.�a,i�r., �o a���.ave �he M.i.v�u�e.� a� �he �ugws� 26, 1 Q74 ^ m2e.ti.ng. 7he ma�i.�n ea�vc�.ed. CITY TRUCKS Mr. Brown mentioned that Mr. Wagar had called him regarding the situation with r � Minutes of tlle Parks F� Recreation Coawnission Meeting, September 23, 1974 Page 14 � � the City trucks being used by the Parks Department. He said that they had that all ironed out and everyone was satis£ied. �1r. Blair asked what the problem was and Mr. Bro�an said that some of the equzpment that ivas used in other departments is apparently supgosed to be asked for, and our people apparently were just taking the ec{uipment. He mentioned that there was anot}ier conflict where a unit broke down while in our possession and there was a$S00 repair bill. There were some people who felt that we should pay for it since it broke down while we were using it. However, we felt that it wasn't our fault that it broke down, it was close to that point when we got it. Mr. Harris mentioned that he heard that the reasan it broke down was because it was overloaded. Mr. Brown replied that to his knowledge there was never any accu- sation of that sort, that the main problem was that when the main unit went out it was really broken, but only certain people knew that, and our men went ahead and used it and it really went. He went on to say that the problem has been solved to every- ones satisfaction. Mr. Harris requested that the Parks Secretary call each of the Commissioners the day of the meeting and remind them, as it is easily overlooked. � WADING POOLS Mr. B1air asked Mr. Brown i� we could get some costs on eaading pools. Mr. Brown replied that he would. � � ADJOURNMENT � �MOTION �o adj�wr.v� �he mee�;ng a.t 4:3Q p.m. � The next regular meeting will be held on Tuesday, October 29, 1974 at 7:30 p.m., in the Community room of Pridley Civic Center. Respectfully submitted, dy W tt, Secr tary to the Commission