PR 11/25/1974\ i
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MINUTES OF THE REGULAR PARKS AND REC$�ATION COMMISSION MEETING. NOVEN�ER ZS, 1974
� Meeting was called to order at 7:30 p.m, by Chairman Blair.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Blair, Caldwell, Harris, Peterson, Wagar
OTHERS PRE5ENT: Curt Dahlberg, 205 Rice Creek Boulevard, Fridley, 784-5188;
Park Foreman
Clifford Ash, 460 Rice Creek Boulevard, I'ridley, 784-5564, H.A.F.
Robert Olmstead, 6850 7th Street N.E., Fridley, 560-2787, H.A.F.
President
Don Howard, 234 Mercury Drive N.E., Fridley, 560-2114, Hockey
0£ficial
Charles Kasick, 7361 Concerto Curve N.E., Fridley, 786-2345,
Department Supervisor
Paul Brown, Director of Parks and Recreation Department
,Tudy Wyatt, Secretary to the Commission
Mvrlvrv by s.ea,�, aecanded by wagcuc �a a�pnave �he M.t:v�c.�ie,� a� xhe Pcvr.h,a and Ree�c.ea,tc;av�
Cam►ni�5a�,��2 Mee.�i.ng, da,ted Sep�embe�c 23, 1974. 7he ma�',i.ovt ccvvr,i.ed.
H . A . F'.
Mr. Brown introduced Messrs. Bob Olmstead and Cliff Ash from the Hockey
Association. Mr. Olmstead stated that they were there to discuss several problems
regarding hockey before the season starts. He said that one of the things they
were concerned with was having the house league officials registered with M.A.H.A.
Mr. Blair stated that he felt�that a clinic should be held for the officials, as
n there are dif.ferent rules between M.A.H.A. and H.A.F. Mr. Wagar asked how the
rules differed and Mr. Ash replied that they vary. Mr. Peterson said we s�hould
tell the kids that next year there will be a clinic and they have to attend.
Mr. Kasick said that it was too late to take the test now. He said that it took
6- 8 weeks to get tiie test taken care of. Mr. Brown mentioned.that the test
was not mandatory, but that a good percentage of the officials joined on their
own. Mr. Ash explained that it took as long as the kid wanted it to; it could
�be as short as two weeks. Mr. Brown stated that we have all the applications
in our office.
Mr. Olmstead said that they were wondering if it would be possible for them
to take the test so that everyone knows the rules they are under. Mr. Ash said
that the reason this is a good idea is because some of the referees go by
high school rules, others by A.H.L. and some under M.A.H.A., and the rules are
different. He said that they felt the best way to be sure that they had consistent
refereeing would be if all the fellows took the M.A.H.A. test and are registered.
He said that it only cost $5.00. Mr. Harris said that actually it is the A.H.A.
test. Mr. Brown replied that it was done through M.A.H.A.
Mr. Peterson said that he felt the Parks and Recreation Department would be
putting themselves into a bind if they would require certification this year, due
to the lateness of the season. He a�ked Mr. Brown what he thought of telling the
kids this year that they would have to attend a clinic or they wouldn't be allowed
to referee, and work toward certification for next year. Mr. Brown felt that this
would be a good idea. He said that h1r. Howard or the Hockey Association could put
� on a clinic. He said that if you tell them they should or must attend, they usually
respond. He said you have to pick a good time, too. He said these kids have trouble
getting to a session at night, and Saturdays they are usually working at MacDonalds,
etc.
y
Minutes of the Parks F, Recreation Commission Meeting, November 25, 1974 Page 2
� Mr. Blair mentioned that we have a copy of the test. He said that at the
clinic they go through the test and tlie book also. He said that then next year
we can have the kids go through the certification process. Mr. Peterson asked
Mr. Olmstead if he felt that this would be satisfactory, because of the time of
the season now. Mr. Olmstead said that he could see that this might be a problem
but that they are not just worried about this year. That would be fine to get it
straightened out by next year.
�;
MOTIO�U by Pe.ie�v�an, �ecanded by Mtc. �ax�.i� �hc�t �he 1�-vicecxan, Mn. �r.awn, and Mn.
0.2m�s�ead .ae.i a da,ie ban u,P.2 hawse �2eccgue ne�e�cee� �v a�iend a mee�,i.ng; �fu�t �hey
mu�z r.�i�e�d a mee,t,i.ng �.n ande�c �a nebe�.ee �.n aujc hawse �l� ye.a�c., w.i,ih ce�c�i:s�.-
ca.ti.an �an �he 1975-76 hea�son. The mo�.i.an calvc,i,ed.
Mr. Harris stated that as long as we are going to do this he £elt that those
who wish to take the test may do so. He said that i£ it's not available to get
the certification on the day they referee they've got the £irst of January or
February to get it taken care o£. •:Mr. Peterson said that at least we will have
set up a two stage requirement so that the kids will know what the requirements
are. They'll know that they have to attend a clinic this y�ear and be certified
next year.
Mr. Blair asked if there was any further discussion. Mr. Kasick asked if
this would be publicized in the Fridley Sun. Mr. Bro►vn replied that it would be.
Mr. Olmstead was asked to pass the word around also.
� D4r. Wagar asked how many house games were scheduled indoors. Mr. Olmstead
replied that it will vary because they had it all laid out and then they lost 51
hours at Northland with the second sheet of ice. He said that they are going to
give them some practice time and the rest of the indoor ice time will be for
their games. He said a ballpark figure of anywhere from 2 to 4 games will be
for each team.
Mr. Olmstead also brought up the fact that they are concerned about the
goalie equipment for the teams. He said that there might be two games in a row
where they were lucky enough to get a block of two hours, but it might be the
same Saturday at another arena. He said that the two sets of goalie equipment might
not stretch too far. He said that of course they run into size difference
there also. It might be a Squirt and it might be a Bantam.
Mr. Blair asked Mr. Brown if he would have any problem supplying the Hockey
Association with goalie equipment at Victory Memorial Arena. Mx. Brown replied
that there is a problem in that we only have so many sets of equipment, and
when there is a duplication during the season, it becomes almost impossible to
service two rinks at the same hour. He said then he would have to pull equip-
ment from some rink that maybe a team is practicing on and then they're pro-
viding no goalie equipment.
Mr. Blair asked Mr. Olmstead if these games were played on the weekend.
Mr. Olmstead replied that most of them would be, but not all.
� Mr. Brown said that basically the equipment is for the rink, not the
- practice, we are supposed to have a set for every cage. He said that the
Minutes of the Parks � Recreation Commission Meeting, November 25, 1974 Page 3
� majority of the use of the rink is for practice, however. He said this is where
the kids try out the goalie equipment, when they are alone and not in front of the
coach. •
Mr. Brown asked Mr. Olmstead if this duplication will happen. very often and
Mr. Olmstead replied that it wouldn't be that often. He said that they could
help themselves a little in obtaining some spare goalie sets.
Mr. Blair asked Mr. Olmstead to get in touch with Paul if there is a conflict.
Mr. Peterson asked Mr. Olmstead if he could arrange the schedule so that he would
have two sets of the same age bracket playing at the same time rather than 4 sets
for the same bracket. Mr. Olmstead indicated that this could be arranged.
Mr. Brown asked Mr. Olmstead basically what they wanted the City to do for
them. Mr. Olmstead replied that they needed to know what they could plan on for
sure. Mr. Brown told him that we had four sets of goalie equipment. Mr. Olm-
stead said he would like to be able to come and pick it u� when he needed it and
then drop it off. He said that they did that a few times last year. Mr. Brown
mentioned that that was probably during the playoffs.
Mr. Brown said they would like to provide four sets of goalie equipment
but that it is all at the rinks. He said that any extra they may have had was at
the Commons and that was only one or two sets at the most. He said that otherwise
� there was one set for each cage, at the rinks. Mr. Brown said that they would
gladly work it out with Mr. Olmstead as best they can.
Mr. Ash mentioned that if they lose the ice at one arena and have to move to
another, they can't take the equipment with them, therefore they..have no equip-
ment to use. (the right size) He said this had happened several times last year.
Mr. Brown explained that the City cannot provide a set of each size for each rink.
He said that the Warming House Attendants have strict orders not to give out the
goalie equipment to anyone.
Mr. Olmstead asked Mr. Brown if each of the five Directors would be able to
have some kind of a card signed by Mr. Brown, which would enable them to sign out
a goal set. Mr. Brown replied that he would like to get four sets"of equipment
and keep it at City Hall to be checked out. He said that it wouldn't necessarily
have to be the pirectors. He said that the Directors could have control of the cards
to insure that the equipment was brought back each time. The equipment would have
to be back the following day.
Mr. Olmstead brought up another nroblem. He explained that if there is a
cancelled house league game on Saturday and the team would like to make it up
on Monday, and time is of the essence, they would like permission to call the
head referee and have it rescheduled. Mr. Ash explained an instance would be
when it was too cold to play on Saturday and they had practice time on Monday,
they would be using their own time anyway. He said that if they have to wait
until Monday to contact anyone to get referees, etc. it gets to be too late,
and it would be much more convenient if the Director could reschedule the game
� without taking someone else's ice. He could then get in touch with Don Howard
- on the week�nd, who in turn would get the referees lined up for Monday, and this
Minutes of the Parks � Recreation Cammission Meeting, November 25, 1974 Page 4
%� would speed things up much better. He explained that when you get to the end of
the season and the ice starts going, you need to get the games in as quickly as
possible. They would be using their own ice only of course. They would not be taking
any away from anyone. Mr. Brown suggested that �ae have a set policy on this, and
then they won't have to contact anyone.
At this point Mr. Don Howard arrived at the meeting.
Mr. Brown advised Mr. Howard that they were discussing the possibility of
the H.A.F. Directors being able to reschedule cancelled games without having to
get in touch with him, because sometimes it takes 10 to 14 days to get the game
rescheduled, because of the way we handle it. He said that we were mentioning
for example, where a team would lose a game on Saturday and would like to play
on Monday. He said they were recommending a set policy.
Mr. Olmstead said that basically the way it would work would be that
generally they can get in touch with Don Howard within an hour or two, and if
he could provide the officials, they could reschedule the game and get in touch
with the coaches right away. He felt the key was whether or not Mr. Howard
could provide the officials. Mr. Olmstead asked that they be able to have the
Director in each Division contact Don Howard and take it from there. Mr. Howard
said they could reschedule on the phone.
Chuck Kasick asked if the girls were going to play broomball at Flanery
again and also at Rice Creek this year. He also wanted to know if it was going
�'�1 to be on Saturday or at night. Bob Olmstead replied that he had s�cheduled it
tentatively at both places for practice and games. Mr. Kasick said that the
girls get cold and he would prefer for them to play there, where there was a
warming house. Also he felt that it was safer for skaters not to play on broom-
ball ice. Mr Olmstead replied that he could schedule all the games at Flanery
with no problem.
Mrs. Caldwell asked if the second practice spot could be where there is a
warming house, Mr. Olmstead said that he had talked to Helen Byrne and she
didn't seem too concerned about the girls not having a warming house. Mrs.
Caldwell stated that she felt the girls and boys should have equal facilities.
Mr. Kasick stated that for the boys' safety, the girls should only be at Flanery.
He said they don't need to go to any other place.
Mr. Harris mentioned the fact that there is no warming house because there
is no building at Rice Creek School for this purpose. He said there are some
construction building shacks, which could be available for a warming house. He
said that he would look into this and see what he could do about getting us one.
� u: ►l : : � � � 1 .■ _ � _
Mr. Olmstead asked if, in order to get real good ice, it would be possible
to £lood at night, when it needs to be built up.
Mr. Blair stated that last year we flooded during the day. Mr. Dahlberg
� explained that our biggest problem was the Christmas rain. He said that we
Minutes of the Parks � Recxeation Commission Meeting, November 25, 1974 Page 5
n have the same crew that we have had for the last 8 years, so �t couldn�t be
blamed on the personnel change in the crew, it was the bad weather. He said that
the Christmas rain took away the base, plus the fact that we are gaining one or
two rinks each year. He said that we are slowly falling further and further
behind.
Mr. Brown mentioned that the City Council said three years ago that there was
too much overtime in the Parks Department and so in the wintertime to find another
way to do it. He continued that they therefore scheduled these men on a rotating
basis and they don't even have the pleasure of a normal weekend.
Mr. Harris said that he felt that barring weather, etc. the ice is not as
good if you don't have a program of night flooding. He said that he had been
over t}iere at 3:00 in the afternoon when they were flooding, and it was absolu-
tely a waste of time with the temperature at 30° _32°. He said it would be al,
right if you could keep everybody off the ice for another 2-3 hours until it had
a chance to set up.
Mr. Dahlberg said that the City of Bloomington has 80 pieces of ice, and they
flood them in 5 hours using tanker trucks. He said using hoses. is just too slow
and time consuming. He said that we should consider updating our equipment.
He said that last year Bloomington had 8 two-man crews and the best they could
do in an 8 hour day was about 16 pieces of ice. He said that they have since bought
a truck and they cover 25 pieces of ice with two men. �
n Mr. Harris asked if that meant he could flood from 7 p.m. to 11 p.m. every
night and have it all done with one piece of equipment. Mr. Dahlberg replied
that if you are concerned about the cost, this is a p�ece of equipment that would
probably pay for itself in the long run..
Mr. Dahlberg said that the way Bloomington sold their Council on buying the
equipment when they converted 8 years ago, was to run a study on it (and they are
still continuing the studies). He said it cost them 8 years ago $5.00/1000 gallons
of water (this is with the hose carrying method); as o£ last year, with labor
costs going up, etc., they were down to $1.50/1000, plas they have increased their
rinks. He said tllat they have new equipment ordered, and they hope to get it
down to $1.00/1000 gallons, which is putting a lot of water down with a minimum
amount of inen.
Mr. Brown mentioned the fact that they only have 8 men in Bloomington and
they have 80 rinks, and they use multi-shifts.
Mr. Harris mentioned that we used to flood at night a few years ago. Mr. Brown
said that we were in overtime then. He said the men reported to the garage at
9:00 p.m. and by the time they got out on a rink it was 9:30 p.m., then they went
accordingly up to 12:00 midnight or 1:00 a.m. �
Mr. Wagar said that flooding in the daytime is foolish. He said you can't
start flooding if it is hot.
� Mr. Peterson said that he is opposed to daytime flooding. He said the ice
has deteriorated since daytime flooding was started.
^
�
Minutes of the Parks � Recreation Commission Meeting, November 25, 1974 Page 6
Mrs. Caldwell asked if we shouldn't try to have a second shift of two men
who flood at night. Mr. Dahlberg replied that two men isn't sufficient. He said
that you need to have four.
Mr. Wagar said that he would like to see the £looding done at night. Mr.
Dahlberg pointed out that when you do split the crews you cut down on your ef-
ficiency. He said that they still only have so many men to do the work and you're
talking ice conditions and we're talking volume. He explained that with the
present setup they have they still can't keep up with them 100%. He said that by
cutting the crew in half and putting them on night shift still doesn't give you
more coverage, you're still falling behind. Mr. Peterson said that it gave you
more efficient coverage because your flooding is more effective. He said that
when you flood in the daytime and it's not effective, you haven't accomplished
anything for the man hours, so you've spent man hours and accomplished nothing.
He said that at least �ou're using your man hours most effectively by £looding
at night.
Mr. Dahlberg replied that they have their other repairs to contend with at the
same time. He said that they have goalie xepairs, lines to paint, etc.
MOT1��1 by wagan, �seconded by Hcvvc,i�, �hat �hey ne�chedu.2e. �he me-n (even .i.� �i.t
.v, �he whv.�e eJr.ew1 �.� �a�sa�,6.2e, da �Gr.at �hey eav� �.2aad a,t v�i.g(�,t, �.� .i.t .i�s
agne2ab.2e w.i�l�. �he uru.an cav�cac,t• The ma�',i.�v� ecvvu.ed•
Mr. Harris stated that he thought they should go ahead with the program even
if they have to pay overtime.
GIRLS FLAG FOOTBALL �
Mr. Chuck Kasick was there to discuss sofirst�ofeallheheafelt theapeople the
girls flag football program. He stated that roblems that the Park Board
should not have to call the City Council about any p time a referee
has. He said that this is in regard to the girls. He said that any Who is turn
doesn't g
o according to the people's wishes, a councilman is called,
calls The City Administration, and then there is a big hass e.
He said that last year he lost a good official who was obeying theWhichshe
ut ressure on the Park Board to get rid of him,
and the City Council p P
t was wrong. He said that the official was from oinsidhetrulestbutnthatuwasn't
fel ame. He said that he was obey g
care less who won the g
good enough for the people. in his estimation,
Mr. Kasick said that the referees that we had this year,
He said that they occasionally made some blunders, but for the
ob. He said that we are not paying for high school
were excellent.
most part did an excellent j
or college referees, but referees from our own City. and he
er referee girls flag ball,
Mr. Kasick said that Don Blair will no long on the sidelines and he listened
oad them, such as the referee
doesn't blame him. He saandtfor aetest heawould g and Mr.
to some of these people, he threw the flag,
would do something
and they would ask Mr.. KaWhen inyactuality the play was for off-
Kasick would tell them it was for tripping� o Wild. He said the men we�t wild too,
sides somewhere else, and the people would g
don't know the rules. He said he had n�alkingaabouteh comrnotion in
because they were
his life and the parents didn't know what they
iNinutes of the Parks � Recreation Commission Meeting November 25, 1974 Page 7
Mr. Kasick said that when they set up this program three years ago, he made it
n so that the girls could understand the game, so that when they did go up to high
school they would know what they were doing. He said we need to get the parents to
understand the rules. �
� Mr. Brown stated that we were concerned here with the rules. Mr. Peterson
said that if the F.Y.F.A. is going to be sponsoring it and there are problems, then
those who are responsible in F.Y.F.A. should be appearing in front of the Commission
too, in terms of finding out what the problems are and taking care of them. Mr.
Howard said that he felt the important thing was to run a cl.inic and you make it
mandatory for Yfuall�theerules tofallathetkids andrthey canBta e them home toutheir
to get a copy o
parents to read. He felt that was the problem.
Mr. Kasick stated that three years ago when he started this program, the only
thing the F.Y.F.A. did was to back him with money. He said he did most of his work
with Mr. Brown. He said that this year it was turned over to the Association and
he has never seen so many problems. He said that he, as a citizen, would like to
have the Park Board let the City Council know about the problems.
Mr. Brown mentioned that when you do have a city administration and �oinclto
type major situation, you've got these particular inputs. People aren't oin gto
be happy with everything and they'll go to the City Council and they're g g
respond, because they're elected by the people, and whether we agree or not, they
have the right to do that.
it is difficult to�get the parents
Mrs. Caldwell asked if it would be ad�ha�ble to have a clinic on Saturday �s
� the parents. Mr. Kasick explained to her
t
o bring their kids to the game. Mr. B�isn who inhturn can take itahomehto their
by giving a copy of the rules to the gl �
parents to read. _
SKI TOURING
ards to this is a brochure whic
skiing. He said that he had been unable,
Mr. Brown mentioned onacross country in reg Blair said that if the
Mr. Blair had given him, entleman in charge. Mr• ski touring
as yet, to get in touch withtn s g
center is developed, entleman is interested in setting up
nature skiing.
and cross country would be done because this is
or snow shoeing along with
Mr. Brown said that ski touring be the implementation
, f where the nature center wouldHuff will�merely North Par �that in
in the realm o He said that Dr. He said
a few other parks we have. ears in our bulletin or not.
towards the program, whether it apP ets it all set up.
our bulletin it'll show interpretation once he g under Dr.
the ski touring
one thing she liked Was the likedtthe idea of them
Mrs. Caldwell said that�a e liked the idea of havin Sh S
She said t lstration. and Dr. Huff 1
Huff's auspices. without all the reg three
of a free kind of thing; ht kind of day for this kind of skiiigtering
just going if it is the rig
' tration fee, etc. She said that Sou lu eattin
le. She would like them tosbe able to do it without that if y P
availab a ing a regi She said
weeks in advance and p Y free and loose. ister, etc., and that just
t of a nature center, o do�stairs and reg eo le
/1 whole concep eo le have to g ht up the fact that if the p P
_ this department then p P Mr. peterson broug free either; then you have to
goes against the grain for her• there, then it isn't lied that if the
Huff being Mrs. Caldwell rep grown
have to depend on Dr. � need him to be there. Mr.
go up there when he is therethenlyou donttlreally
program is set up properly,
- �linutes of the Parks $ Recreation Commission Meeting November 25, 1974 Page 8
said that, knowing what a sharp guy Dr. Huff is, he feels that Dr. Huff will probably
� incorporate some of his tours based around snow shoeing and ski touring. He said it
. would all depend on how they develop the area and that is very tentative right now.
Mr. Blair commented that he wasn't too concerned about registration but someone
would have to go and lay out the trails and maintain them.
ED WILMES AND PLYMOUTH PARKS
Mr. Brown mentioned the fact that we would like to drop Ed Wilmes Park and
Plymouth Park, as we do not get too much use there in the winter.
M�7TON by Pe,te�sc,n, �ecanded by Ha�vw�, �o cUcap �wa �.iece�s ab �,ce �h„i,cct w�.n,te�c.,
nume,�y �d G1,i,eme�5 av�d P.�ymou,th. Pwch�s . The ma�ian cwvu.ed.
HARRIS ESTATES
Mr. Blair asked if there were any plans for Harris Estates. Mr. Brown replied
that it had been leveled and seeded. He said that the Comprehensive Master Plan
calls for an apparatus area and general skating. He said that we don't get much
use at Rice Creek right now.
Mr. Blair mentioned that he had been approached to consider resodding the
football field instead of reseeding it. He said the cost would be about $200.00.
Mr. Brown said that they are going to put in black dirt and fill it in, building
up the center and then they will reseed it. Mr. Blair asked if resodding would
� be better. Mr. Brown replied that in Japan they cover over areas with seed in the
ground, then put poly over it at night and take it off in the daytime, and the
grass really grows. He said that the Parks Department is going to try it this
summer and if that doesn't work, then they will resod it. Mr. Peterson said that
he felt it would be cheaper to just tell the F.Y.F.A. to lay the sod if we pay for
it. Mr. Harris mentioned that he felt it should be sodded and top dressed.
INTOXICATING LIQUOR .
Mr. Blair asked that we put the intoxicating liquor ordinance on the next
agenda.
ADJOURNMENT �
!��TT�N �a ad�aunn �he mee,#,i.ng cLt 9:30 p.m.
The next regular meeting will be held on Mondays December 23, 1974 at 7:30 p.m.,
in the Community Room of Fridley Civic Center.
Respectfully submitted, M
dy Wy t, Secret y to the Commission
n
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