PL 04/21/1971 - 31099�
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PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
APRIL 21, 1971
PAGE 1
The meeting was called to order at 8:05 P.M. by Chairman Erickson.
ROLL CALL:
Members Present:
Meml�ers Absent:
Others Present:
Minish, Zeglen, Erickson, Fitzpatrick, Schmedeke
None
Darrel Clark, Engineering Aasistant, Peter Herlofsky,
Planning Assistant
APPROVE PLANNING_COMLKISSION MINUTES: APRIL 7, 1971:
MOTION by ZegZen, seconded by Fitzpatrick, that the Planning Commission
minutes of Apri1 7, 197.Z be approved. Upon a voice vote, all voting a,ye, the
motion carried unanimously.
RECEIVE PLATS & SUBDIVISIONS-STREETS & UTILITIES SUBCOMMITTEE MINUTES:
APRIL 6, 1971:
MOTION by Schmedeke, seconded Zeglen, that the Planning Corranission receive
fihe minutes of the Plats & Subdivisions-Streets & Utilities Subcommittee meet-
ing of April 6, 1971. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, the motion carried
unanimously.
RECEIVE BOARD OF APPEALS MINUTES: MARCH 23 1971:
MOTION by Minish, seconded by Fitzpatrick, that the Planning Commission
receive the minutes of the Board of Appeals meeting of March 23, 1971. Upon
a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried nna»i�pusly.
RECEIVE BUILDING STANDARDS-DESIGN CpNTROL SUBCOI�II�IITTEE MINUTEg; �,pRIL 6 1971:
1►JOTION by ZegZen, secQnded by Schmedeke, that the Planning Cammission
receive the minutes of the Building Standards-pesign Control Subcoma►.ittee
me�t.f.�g of April 6, Z971. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, the motion
carried unanimously.
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�"' ""'+a �++��+� +.•�• �i1-u�:,,,wAL�EB AND CURRY: The Easterly 365 feet
of the Westerly 740 feet, Auditor's Subdivision �89, building site for 8
42 unit apartment.
Mx. W. C. Walker, Mr. David C. Curry, Sr. and Mr. David C. Curry, Jr.
were present.
Darrel Clark stated �hat the property was acrosa the atreet from the tin
buildiag and Determan's Weldiag. The request is to split off a parcel of land
�, large enough to take care of a 42 unit bqilding and they need 105,000 square feet.
The petitioner does aot own the West 375 feet where Minnesota Door is
located. At one time Lote 2 and 3 were unde� diff,���an� p�nerships, but now they
are uader one ownersF►ip. fle wants to put up one building aad the mortgage companq
Planning Comnisaion Meeting - April 21, Y971 Page 2
� wanta a definite piece of property before they can place a mortgage.
Mr. Schmedeke asked if there was any problem with streets or utility
easements. Darrel Clark anawered there is an easement ruaning parallel to
Central Avenue, and it has been dedicated. The sewer line is between 72nd
Avenue and Norton Avenue, and other utilitiea are in 72nd Avenue. The City now
has a 15 or 20 foot easement for the sewer that serves the property in a N/S
direction.
The description of the property after splitting would be the Easterly
so many feet of the Westerly so many feet of Auditor's Subdivision l�o. 89.
Chairman Erickson felt that if the Planning Commission believed the request for
the lot split was proper and reasonable, it might be advisable to attach to the
motion the suggestion that the building permit should be issued simultaneously
so that if the mortgage did not go throu�h, it would not be an unnecessary split.
It wae noted the width might change from 365 feet to make the 105,000 square
feet.
MOTION by Fitzpatrick, seconded by Minish, that the Plann.ing Cammi.ssion
reco�end to Council granting the 1ot split, L.S. #71-05, by Walker and Curry
be�ng the East 365 feet of the West 740 feet of Auditor's Subdivision No. 89
for a building site of a 42 unit apartment, subject to the issuance of a huilding
pexmit. Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried unanimously.
�„� 2. LOT SPLIT REQUEST: L.S. �71-06, STANLEY DAHI.MEIER BY ROBERT BIGELOW:
Lot 7, Auditor`s Subdivision No. 108 -- split ia half for two building
sites.
Mr. Robert Bigelow wae present.
Darrel Clark said the line would be �hrough the center of the lot for
the split. There is a single family house facing Stinson Boulevard, and is in
the proceas of being sold. The rear yard aetback is 32 feet aad the house is
about 82 feet from the North line which ia Onondaga Street.
Mr. Bigelow, refening to the name of Barton Realty on the certificate of
surveq, said that they ordered.the aurvey, but the request for the split was �
from Mr. Dahlmeier.
The Engineering Aasiatant said that utilities are on Onondaga and Stinson
Boul.evard. There is a 33�foot dedicated easement on Stineon Boulevard and a 30
foot�easement on Onondaga Stre�t. Stinson Boulevard is under the jurisdiction
of Ramsey Couaty and they maintain Stineon Boulevard. Mr. Dahlmeier is not in
the State at the present time, but in Phoenix. Mr. Bigelaw has some sort of
agreement with Mr. Dahlmeier to act for the sale, but not necessarily the split.
MOTION by Schmedeke, seconded bg Fitzpatrick, that the Planning Commission
recommend to Council the approval of the 1ot split request, L.S. #71-06, by
Stanley Dahlmeier, represented by Rob�rt Bigelow, of Lot 7, Auditor's Subdivision
No. 108 to be split in half for two building sites, subject to the signature of
� l�lr. Diahlmea.er on the lot split 'application. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye,
fihe motion carried unanimously.
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Plaaning Commission Meeting - April 21, 1971 Pa�e 3
3. CONSIDERATION OF AN ORDINANCE AMENDING AND RECODIFYING SECTION 45.053
RELATING TO SIDEYARD REQUIREMENTS IN THE R-1 DISTRICT:
It was noted there were no changes in the last three paragraphs of the
proposed ordinance.
Chairman Erickson said he had prepared some sketches to show the effect
the sideyard requirements would have on the potential width of a house.
For example, Sketch �1 shows the aide yard requirements under the present
ordinance for a 60 foot lot to be 13 feet on one side and 10 feet on the other.
This leaves 37 feet for the houae.
Sketch �2, under the preaent proposal for a 75 foot lot, single family
dwelling with a 14 foot single garage, side yarde of 15 feet and 10 feet, the
house would be 36 feet.
Sketch �i3, a 75 foot lot with a reduc�ion in side yard requirements to
5 feet on either side of the lot, with a 20 foot garage, would leave 45 feet
for the house.
Sketch #4, showing provisions for expansion on a 75 foot lot, one 14
foot single garage, with a 15 foot side yard on t�e garage side and 5 feet on
the other side of the lot, would leave 41 feet for the house.
Sketch #5, under the present ordinance, a single family dwelling with a
20 foot double garage and a 5 foot side yard at t�e garage side and 10 feet on
the other side of the house, there would be 40 feet for the house.
As a builder, Chairman Erickson said it seems difficult to develop
reasonable plans with 36 foot frontage. New Brighton allaws 5 feet on either
side of the lot for a side yard. He talked with the Building Inspection Depart-
ment about the problem of adding to a garage. To provide an additional 10 feet
for an additioaal g�rage apace is not-necessary. If tbe wall wer�.torn out to
widen the exiatiag �arage, you probab,ly don't aeed 10 feet unless you go to a
24 foot garage. �
Chsirman Erick�on felt the side yard requirements could be reduced so
that a rea�onable frontage to the home could be built. Se had built houses with
the bedroo� of one house aad the garage of another side by side an,d had no ca�-
plaiats. It seema the habit of the public to want to build houses as wide as
they posaibly can. He thought if they were going to maintain 15 foot side yard,
the Co�nission might request going to 5 feet on the other aide of the lot so
that a reasonable frontage could be obtained.
Mr. Fitzpatrick said that he was under the impression the number of lots
$nd location ia such that this ordinance is somewhat academic all the way.
Chairman Erickson said that Mr. Fitzpatrick was right to some extent. The new
construction, about 80� or better, would have double gara�es in the beginning of
the construction so that there won't be too much of a problem. The few remainin�
Lots are scattered and emall.
Planning Commission Meeting � April 21, 1971 Page 4
� Darrel Clark said it was hie understanding that the intent af the ordinance
was to provide for a 20 foot to 24 foot attached garage. The Chairman said that
if we required only a 5 foot side yard and alao required a 14 foot garage, there
would be room to make a 20 foot garage. He didn't see any reason for providing
a larger side yard than necessary so that a double garage could be bui�t.
Mr. Fitzpatrick felt the additional 11 feet allawed for a garage was
fine when thinking of a single garage. It seems now it is a common thing for
a garage to be built with a f amily room added on behind the garage or on top.
MOTION by Minish seconded by Fitzpatrick, that the Planning Coa+mission
recommend to Council that this ordinance be considered for publication with the
provision that the 15 foot side yard setback on the garage side at the time
of the construction of a single family attached garage be changed to an eleven
(11') foot side yard setback to allow the house to be buil� with a for�y foot
frontage. Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried unanimously.
4� REVIEW �ND FORMULATION OF POLICY REGARDING FUTURE DEVELOPMENT OF GAS
STATIONS:
Peter Herlofsky had �iven the Commiseion copies of the legal summary
regarding the Brooklyn Park law suit restricting gas atations, and the Court
had upheld the decision of Brooklyn Park. He referred to the Code, 13. Gasoline
n Pwups, and Item 13.02 refers to Council action. An excerpt follo�,�s:
` "In making a determination whether or not the erection, placement,
keeping or maintaining of as�y such gasoline pump, or the erection or construc-
tion of a building or structure in which the same is housed or to be housed,
pr in connection with which such pump is to be used, is detrimental to the
public health, safety, and the general welfare, the Couacil may consider the
nature of the land upon which the same ia located or to be located, the nature
of adjoining land, or buildings, fire hazards created thereby, the effect upon
traffic into and from the premises, or on any adjoiniag roads, whether or not
such a pump or building or similar structure is already in euistance and located
on the saane premises or on other landa im�ediately close by, and all such other
or further factors as the Council shall deem requisite of consideration in
determining the effect of such installation or construction on public health,
eafetq and general welfare. (Ref. 197)"
He th ea referred to the Brooklyn Park Ordiaance No. 1965-47 Regulating
and Licenaing Gasoline and Oil Service Stationa in Brooklqn Park. The example
ae noted is not neceasarily the best, but if apecific rules could be laid out,
such as those used for billboards in our sign ordinance, a definite policy
could be eatablished. The problem is that once a filling statioa is constructed,
and the owaers find it �ough going, theq look around for other means of attract-
ing customers, auch ae trailers.
- A discue�ion followed relating to licensing pumpe only, rental of trailere�
or caaapexs, selling of ueed cars, displaqing pennants� etc.
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RlanninS ComzaLssion Meeting - April 21, 1971 Page 5
� Mr. Minish called attention to the Western Oil aiga. He said that one
of the conditions of the sign permit was not to put up anq temporary aigna, such
as price war. A month or so after opening, all tem�orary sigas were back. This
points out the need for control. It wae agreed there was a problem of enforcing
the ordinauce. Mr. Miniah asked if a survey could be made of the number of
stations aud how many were in violation of the ordinance. Peter Herlofsky in-
formed the Commission that the Building Inspection Department makes inspections
regularlp and records the reaults in the appropriate file.
Mr. Lowell Ridgeway, a member of the Minnesota Petroleum Council, stated
that the oil companiea frown very heavily upon rental and car sales. They accept
the need for light automotive work, but heavy body work and heavy motor overhaul
is discouraged.
Mr. Ridgeway continued they were currently working with the City of
Minneapolis and St. Louis Park. He felt their Committee would welcome the
opportunity to set down with the Planning Commission and try to woric out some
of the problems discussed this evening. The membera of the Minnesota Petroleuan
Council are aware of these problems and want to help communities solve them.
Mr. Schmedeke stated he was in an area where they called it gasoline
alley. Because of the way this area has developed, he felt the City should
have some restrictions where we should allow a gas station to be built and
how many.
�„1 Chairman Erickson felt part of the policy should be that the applicant
for a gas station should have a reasonable requeat or proof it was necessary
- for a station in that location.
The Planning Co�ission continued "The Policy Regarding Future Develop-
ment of Gas Stationa" until.the next meeting.
5. PRELIMINARY DISCUSSION WITH PLANNYI�IG a01�Il�IISSION REGARDING THE ELEMENTS
AND PROCESS OF OON�REAENSIVE PLAI�TS FOR THE CITY:
The Planniag Commission tabled until further notice the "Preliminary
Discussion of Comprehensive Plans for the City".
6. REVIEW AND REEVALUATIODT OF E$ISTING PLANNING NORTH OF OSBORNE ROAD
AND WEST OF UNIVERSITY AVENUE �0 CITY LIMITS:
The Plats 6 Subdivisions-Streets & Utilitiea Subco�ittee reviewed this
problem �und Darrel Clark again discussed the problem. The area ia bounded by
85th Avenue on the North, Oeborne Avenue on the South, East River Road on the
We�t and Univeraity Avenue on the East. The Plate & Subdivisions-Streets �
Utilities Subcom�ittee considered eatablishin� eignal lights, railroad crossovera
and traffic patterns.
He continued that the Subcommittee recc�mended the croasing at 85th
Aveaue remain. When it reaches East River Road, the croasing should loop up
�' to connect with 85th Lane in Coon Rapids. 83rd Aveaue ahould be a crossover
aad when it gets to East River Road, the loop should be down to Janesville
Street. 79th Avenue should be a new croesover, and when it�is put ia, 77th
Aveaue ehould be con$i�iered fq� possible removal. Tt�ere was a diacuasion when
Planninq Commission Meeting - April 21, 1971 Page 6
the accident, which resulted in three deaths, happened that the crossover at 77th
� be closed. Also, the existing crossin.g to John Hayes' junkyard be closed as it
is not protected by signs. The railroad has written a letter stating they would
not object to the above mentioned moving of the crossovers if the request were
brought to the Minnesota Railroad Warehouse Commission. 85th Avenue is all
vacant property. If the crossing should be looped down, instead of up to connect
with 85th Lane, the filling station would have to be taken. The City could recom-
mend to Coon Rapids that if they loop up to connect to 85th Lane, the City of
Fridley would loop down to connect 83rd Avenue with Janesville. The Commission
should just study the policy and request the move when it becomes necessary.
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The Subcommittee noted that, in their discussion of traffic signals on
East River Road and University Avenue, the existing signals are on 85th Avenue
and Osborne Road. There is a bit of a problem with the planned signal at 83rd
Avenue as 83rd Avenue goes only two blocks into Spring Lake Park. The planned
signal for 81st Avenue has a different problem as 81.st Avenue goes through to
Highway No. 65, but is not developed as a wide collector street in Spring Lake
Park. 79th Avenue is no crossing but just an access road. The Subcommi.ttee
recoimnended 81st Avenue because the street went through Spring Lake Park to
Highway No. 65. Main Street is a State Aid street and goes through the entire
area.
The Subcommittee recommended discouraging service drives with loopbacks.
In developing large tracks and dividing them in half, would be an incentive for
omitting the service drives: An agreement with the driving Range was made for
the service drive.
Peter Herlofslcy said the Planning Commisaion was faced with the problem
of leaving the area zoned the way it is, or consider cammercial or residential.
Originally this land was zoned for residential and rezoned to industrial.
Darrel Clark continued that below 79th Avenue the streete are laid out in a
grid pattern. Council held a hearing about the possibility of adding to the
present paving contract. The Subcammittee thought the City should not pave more
than necessary as they kno�a there will be a storm sewer built and thi� work would
be only temporary.
The Chairman suggested that 77th Avenue be closed off and 79th Avenue
go through.
MOTION by Schmedeke, seconded by Ma,nish, that the Planning Commission
recommend to Council that additional railroad crossings should go in at 79th
and 83rd Avenues and reconsider eliminating the arossing at 77th Avenue at the
time 79th Avenue crossing is opened. The crassing on the John Xayes property
and Zronton Street should be eliminated� and to slign the proposed signals on
East River Road with 79th Avenue and 83rd Avenue. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting
aye, the motion caa�ried unanimously.
MOTION by Minish, seconded by Zeglen� that the Planning Co�nnni.ssion recorn-
mend to Council the follawing: 1) Regarding tr$ffic light pattern for East
River Road: Consider the f�rst traffic 1�ght at 79th Avenue and East River Road.
2) Intersection of �3rd Avenue moving 5outh to be opposite Janesville Street.
�' 3) Move 85th Avenue jogging to meet 85th Lane in Co�n Rapids. Upon a voice
- vote, a11 voting sye, the motion carried unan.imously.
Planning Commi.ssion Meeting - April 21, 1971 Page 7
MOTION by Minish, seconded by Zeglen, that the Planning Commission
�'` sugges t to the Ci ty Counci 1 tha t an addi ti onal si gnal be consi dered at ei ther
. 81st or 83rd Avenues on Uni versi ty Avenue depending upon the developing of the
1and. Upon a voice vote, all voting aye, the motion carried unanirr�usly.
MOTIDN by Minish, seconded by Zeglen, that the Planning Commission recom-
mend to the City Counci3 that 78th Avenue from Beech Street to Main Street NOT
be vacated and recorrmtend a temporary surface from Beech Street to Elm Street.
Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, the motion carried unani�usly.
MOTION by Minish, seconded by Zeglen, that the Planning Commission recom-
mend to the City Council that the service dri ve on Uni versity Avenue between
Osborne Road and 79th Avenue should have a minimum of 1'� acres for the loopback,
that there be a detached service drive North of 83rd Avenue, and to discourage
a service drive between 79th and 83rd Avenues, but if access is needed, it be
along Uni versity Avenue rather than the back of the lots facing Uni versity. Upon
a voice vote, a11 voting aye, the motion carried unanimously.
In discussing the sanitary sewer line, Darrel Clark said a line could
come from North Suburban Sanitary Sewer District. There are about 260 acres to
be served and the line would have to go throu�h the back of the property and
go along University Avenue with the lateral. If you are talking commercial
' property and not develop into 10 acre sites or more, the commercial property
to survive has to have a service drive. Chairman Erickson said all the members
of the Commission realize this area has a lot of problems. The suggestion was
made by Darrel Clark that soil tests could be made to determine what type of
� construction would be suited to the area. Peter Herlofsky added that the results
of the test might help determine the type of development that could be encouraged
in the area.
Mr. Fitzpatrick co�ented that if the Planning Commission is thinking
about atudying this land, were they not justified taking soil samples?
MOTIOIV by Fitzpatrick, seconded by Schmedeke, that the Planning Commission
recommend to Council that they would like to see as many of the utilities brought
out adjacent to University Avenue as possible so that the more valuable property
will bear the assessments. There is a possibility of land adjacent going tax
forfei t i f the land is of lower value than the assessment. Also that soil tests
be taken of the ares. Upon a voice vote, a11 voting aye, the motion carried
unanimously.
Chairman Erickeon added that if it were possible to drain the area to
lawer the water table, would it be economical. Darrel Clark said that you
cannot lower the water table in peat.
ADJOURNMENT :
There being no further business, Chairman Erickson adjourned the
meeting at 11:45 P.M.
� Reapectfully sub�pitted
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Ha�ze� 0' Brian
Recording Sec�etary
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