PL 02/01/1989 - 30695�-�,
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CITY OF FRIDLEY
SPECIAL PLANNING COMMIBSION MEETING, FEBRIIARY 1, 1989
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CALL TO ORDER:
Chairperson Betzold called the February 1, 1989, special Planning
Commission meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
ROLL CALL:
Members Present: Donald Betzold, Dave Kondrick, Dean Saba,
Paul Dahlberg, Alex Barna
Members Absent: Sue Sherek
others Present: Barbara Dacy, Planning Coordinator
Jock Robertson, Community Development Director
John Flora, Public Works Director
Steve Billings, City Councilmember
Tim Yantos, A.C. Regional Railroad Authority
Dick Wolsfeld, BRW
Doug Moore, BRW
Scott Lund, Corridor Advisory Committee
Greg Owens, Chamber of Commerce
DISCUSSION OF LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT (LRT):
Mr. Betzold stated the Planning Commission had requested this
opportunity to meet with the individuals involved with light rail
transit and to invite other interested parties to discuss light
rail transit. He stated they have to start with the assumption
that light rail transit is going to come through Fridley. The
Planning Commission's concerns are: If it comes through Fridley,
what are the impacts on Fridley? Where should it go? How can the
Planning Commission affect this process? Even though there are
some overall major decisions that will be made for light rail
transit at a far higher level, he felt they should concentrate on
planning for light rail transit in Fridley.
Mr. Tim Yantos, Deputy City Administrator for Anoka County and
Director of the Anoka County Regional Railroad Authority's Light
Rail Transit Planning, was at the meeting to give an overview of
light rail transit. Mr. Yantos stated also at the meeting with him
were Dick Wolsfeld and Doug Moore from BRW. He stated Mr. Wolsfeld
and Mr. Moore were hired by the Anoka County Regional Railroad
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�uthority and the Hennepin County Regional Railroad Authority to
assist the Raiiroad Authority in developinq a comprehensive plan.
In this first phase they will be developin� a comprehen�ive plan
working with Hennepin County because the line obviously goes beyond
37th Avenue from Anoka County to downtown Minneapolis. Hennepin
County has four differrent routes they are going to build.
Mr. Yantos stated the reason the Railroad Authority got involved
in the first place was because they are yery concerned about the
traffic "grid lock”, and they want to provide transportation for
their citizens in the future. Also, the Metropoiitan Council, in
its long range transportation plans, does not look at any more
freeways or expansion of highways, but are looking at li�ht rail
transit as the next mode of transportation.
Mr. Yantos stated that with the compre�ensive plan, they are
looking at whether light rail transit works in Anoka County; and
if it does, where? To assist them �n that process, they have
developed quite an elaborate committee process. The Technical
Advisory Committee with variou� technical people from all over the
cities and counties look at the same information. The Corridor
Advisor� Cammittee is made up of citizens and business people who
are impacted by the proposed rout,es. The Intergovernmental
/r`� Committee is �nade up of elected officials of the cities and
counties. The informat3on flows from the Technical Advisory
Committee to the Cor�idor Advisory . Committee, to the
Intergovernmentai Advisory Committee. The Intergovernmental
Advisory Committee very quickly will be making a recommendation to
the Railroad Authority regarding the routes and station locations,
etc., of the project.
Mr. Yantos stated in the study they are looking at patronage
analysis or the ridership. They are looking at the alignment
studies of which routes they want to select, the various station
locations, the "park and ride" (another key element), the cost, the
roadway system interface, the funding and financial alternatives.
Those all then become part of their comprehensive plan which will
then go to the Railroad Authorities for approval.
Mr. Yantos stated another aspect of what they are trying to
complete as part of their comprehensive plan is to look at the
transportation plan in the future--all the transit systems, the bus
systems--to find out how it is all going to weld together within
the next 20 years.
Mr. Yantos stated he would like Dick Wolsfeld to talk about the
technical portion and how light rail transit affects the City of
Fridley, where it is going, some of the station locations, and how
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the decisions are made.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated he is a member of the Citizen Advisory
Committee and a member of the Technical �avisory Committee. He
stated he would start out by telling how this relates to the rest
of what is going on in Hennepin County. He stated Hennepin County
adopted a comprehensive plan for the City last June, and they saw
a long range basic service in six corridors focusing on downtown
Minneapolis: one out Hiawatha to the airport with an extension to
the proposed Megamall; one in the 35W South corridor; southwest
service out to Hopkins, Minnetonka, and Eden Prairie; northwest
service to Crystai, Robbinsdale, Brook3.yn Park/Brookiyn Center;
a northeast �ine which will connect Anoka County with Hennepin
County; and then a connection in the Midway corridor over to
downtown St. Paul. The concept was that light rail would be a
system which will facilitate the movement from the northwest
corridor to the airport and southwest to the Univer�ity. So, they
thought it was important in the beginning not to build a single
lonc� carriclor but to start service in multiple corridors and then
have the system grow.
Mr. Wolsfeid stated the Northeast Corridor Study focused on that
� concept, and the Committee started with 110 miles of candidate
places to iocate light rail transit service in the northeast
corridor. The charge to each of those advisory committees was to
come back with a single preferred alternative and to make that
advice to the Anoka County Regional Railroad Authority. The
Committee went through the process of looking at technical
information on those routes, narrowing them, eliminating and
screening out the ones they did not see were superior, until they
got down to where they have reached some tentative cbnclusions they
would be discussing at this Planning Commission meeting.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated the would give the Planning Commission a flavor
of the kinds of technical information the Committee looked at.
Generally, they divided the northeast corridor down into Northeast
Minneapolis (the City of Minneapolis out to 37th Avenue), from 37th
Avenue to I-694, and then north of I-694 generally up to the
Northtown area. They looke.d at how much right-of-way is required,
the impact on the frontage roads, the impact on sidewalks, whether
there is adequate room for parking, right and left turn lanes,
crossing traffic, the impact on land use, and major environmental
impacts. The Committee spent a lot of time discussing the issue
they refer to as "urban versus commuter” service, and it gets to
the philosophy of what they want light rail transit to do. Do they
want it to be high speed with relatively infrequent stops that
provides a service that can compete with the automobile, or is
their objective to provide more localized service, maybe 1/2 mile
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to 3/8 mile stations? The travel t�m8 is going to be longez, but
they can provide more access to the user.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated when they started narrowing the alternatives,
they very quickiy began to focus on University Avenue and Central
Avenue, and a number of transitions between those two routes.
These two routes were deemed as being the best in terms of service,
travel times, and other characteristics. Then, the Committee had
to begin to evaluate those and choose whether to be on Central or
University or a combination of both �nd where, Each of the
Advisory Committee members were asked to identify the test, the
criteria, a�►d the issues that were most important to them. Some
said the highest ridership, some said it should be �he fastest
travel time, some said it should be the cheapest system, some
thought they should avoid the environmental impacts, and some
thought they should use light rail transit to foster economic
growth.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated they talked abou't economics from three
different standpoints:
1. in terms of new development
^ 2. better productivity of the economy
3. fostering redevelopment
Mr. Wolsfeld stated that as they � began to look at how one would
achieve each of those individual criteria, they ended up with a
different answer in terms of alternatives. If they want to
maximize the ridership, the data says they can maximize ridership
by starting at Northtown, staying on University Avenue down to I-
694, then transitioning over to Central, servicing the businesses
that exist on Central Avenue, all the way to downtown Minneapolis.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated if their objective is to minimize the impacts
from a traffic and land use standpoint, the best thing to do is to
stay on University Avenue and avoid all the commercial development
and right-of-way constraints that exist on Central, down to the
Burlington Northern main line, avoid all the single family homes
that exist along University Avenue and into downtown.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated if they are trying to maximize economic
impacts, in terms of development as it relates to the north, they
could probabl� be on either one of those routes, but they need to
get over to Central Avenue to get better sales productivity per
square foot, and they might want to introduce a new alternative of
going over to Marshall to try to foster some redevelopment.
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Mr. Wolsfeld stated the last one is to minimize the environmental
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impacts, and the major environmental concern 3s Moore Lake. In
putting all�this together in a composite drawing and look at those
factors of the ridership, minimizing impacts, economic impacts,
environmental impacts, the conclusion of the Advisory Committee to
date is that north of I-694, University Avenue offers more
advantages in terms of ineeting more of these criteria than does
Central Avenue. When they get south of I-694, that situation
changes, and Central Avenue appears to offer more advantage, and
tt�en south of 37th Avenue, it is a mixed bag.
Mr. Woisfeid stated each of the advisory committees is at a
different stac�e. The Citizen Advisory Committee made its
recommendations in terms of what should happen in the next phase,
the Technieal Advisory Committee is waiting for some additional
infornaation on transitions along I-694 before they reach any
conclusions, and the Intergovernmental Advisory Committee is
waiting for the Citizen and Technical Advisory Committees to give
them information.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated that at this point, he wouid say that north of
I-694 there was a fairly good concensus that University has more
advant�ges `than Central. It focuses on Northtown; it provides good
travel time; it maximizes ridership; and it minimizes the
'� environmental i.mpacts.
Mr. Wolsfeld �tated he had a series of complete aerial photos so
the Planning Commission members could see where the line was
proposed within Fridley. He stated Doug Moore has been the Project
Manager for the northeast corrido-r, and he would review the proposed
alignment through Fridley.
Mr. Moore stated they are trying to take advantage of the existing
noise barrier that is already protecting the homes from the noise
of I-694, so they will be locating the light rail up against and
adjacent to the noise barrier.
Mr. Saba asked why the Burlington Northern route was not selected.
Why go along University Avenue or Central Avenue?
Mr. Yantos stated the County is concerned that if they are going
to have a route,. they have to have ridership. The concerns with
the Burlington Northern line are: (1) the ridership would not be
there; and (2) Burlington Northern does not want the light rail
there.
Mr. Saba stated that he looked at some developments on the East
Coast and on the West Coasts that use railroads �iery successfully
and with an extremely high volume of ridership. He just did not
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understand why �hey could not either use the existing track or at
least build a track alongside, even if �hey have to take property.
Mr. Yantos stated using the Burlington Northern track was one of
the first things looked at by the committee members. They also
looked at the potentiai for development, ridership, and the ability
to either share or use or buy property; and it was extremely
difficult with the Burlington Nor�hern route compared to the
University and Central Avenue routes.
Mr. Wols�eid stated that for Hennepin County's system, the
northwest is in a Burlington Northern railroad right-of-way, and
the southwe$t line is in an old Chicago/Northwestern railroad
right-of-way that Hennepin County purchased. In looking at the
Burlington Norethern trackage for the northeast corridor, the major
problem is it is way off center in terms of where the primary
activities are in terms of access, so its ability to attract
ridership would be difficult. Pius, Burlington Northern has said
this is their main line for Montana to Chicago, and there is not
excess right-of-way�within that trackage.
Mr. Saba asked what kinds of hazards were there as far as
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pedestrians and bicyclists crossing the tracks.
Mr. Yantos stated they would have gates and lights. There was
probably more protection at intersections than there currently is
at semaphores and stop signs. �
Mr. Saba asked if Mr. Yantos had any pictures of what the light
rail transit would actually look like.
Mr. Yantos stated "Reach of Rail” is an excellent video showing how
light rail transit works and what it looks like.
Mr. Kondrick asked if Mr. Wolsfeld had any idea what the ridership
would be down University Avenue to downtown. He stated a lot of
people who live in his neighborhood work in Bloomington, Maple
Grove, all over the Twin Cities area. How are they going to
service these people with light rail transit?
Mr. Wolsfeld stated they are not going to be able to service
someone who lives in Fridley and works in Maple Grove with light
rail transit. Light rail transit is se=ving a certain segment of
the travel market, and it is not the answer to all the
transportation problems within the region. The estimate is that
about 60�a of the ridership will be to or from downtown Minneapolis.
The other 40� will have a destination of Northtown, University of
Minnesota, the airport,and other destinations along the route. The
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primary reason that the Hennepin County Railroad Authority is
proceeding with a system that goes out to County Road 18 as part
of the first stage, goes northwest to 63rd Avenue, goes over to the
University of Minnesota, and out to Hiawatha to 46th Avenue is to
give service in four corridors such that people have the ability
to go more places than just from a single corridor to downtown.
They want to get away from that orientation to downtown.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated when Hennepin County put its plan together,
they had strong advocates for the downtown tunnel. The people who
studied that and supported that were generally the suburban mayors.
They wanted the ability to move through the clowntown area as well
as to get to the downtown area. 5ti11, the primary destination is
downtown Minneapolis. But, if they look at the percentage of the
bus riders today who go to the two downtowns compared to the total
ridership, he would guess that number is higher than 60�.
Mr. Dahlbe�g asked if this wasn't a pretty expensive system to
replace bus service. In effect, it is eliminating the University
Avenue bus; and at $15 million per mile, couldn't that money be
used to really upgrade the existing transportation system to do the
same kind of thing or better?
r`� Mr. Woisfeld stated people ask themselves the question: "Is it
something they ought to do in terms of the system?" Adding all
the capitai costs and ope�ating costs that people in the Twin
Cities area spend per year for transportation, Metropolitan Council
ended up with a number between $3-5 billion per year. Light rail
is oriented to only about 2-3� of the person trips in the region.
If they spend $120 million and serve 3� of the people, that would
be in proportion to what is being spent. In amortizing this in
terms of an annual cost, they do not get anywhere close to $120
million per year.
Mr. Wolsfeld�stated he thought the problem with light rail is that
people tend to look at it as the solution to the transportation
problem in the Twin Cities, and it is not. It might be one part
of the overall problem. Yes, it is expensive. The trains carry
500 people and 1 driver. With a busy, they have one driver for 48
people. The operating costs per passenger are significantly lower
with light rail than they are with a bus. The question is: "Do
they get enough people to use the light rail transit system that
can justify the capital expenditures?�� He stated it is a labor
productivity decision.
Mr. Saba stated if they used that kind of money to upgrade the bus
system, couldn't that end up with a much more portable and service-
able system, even though they had more labor costs?
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Mr. Wolsfeld stated some cities that have made the capital
investment in lig�it rail transit have found that the quality and
the image that is provided by light rail attracts people to transit
that otherwise would not even consider the mode. If the purpose
in building light rail is to stop every quarter of a mile and
replace the bus and travel times that are not significantly
different than the bus, it probably does not make any sense to put
in light rail because they are then just electrifying the bus line.
If they are trying to provide a mode that has a chance of competing
with the automobile in terms of image, quality, and travel time,
the b�s which has to sit in the same traffic congestion as the car
doesn't have those advantages. If they were to build an exclusive
guideway for buses to get out of the lanes of traffic, most people
would say the cost is not significantly different than the light
rail transit and they might as well do something that has further
productivity in terms of the vehicle.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated he was recently in San Diec�o. In 1980, San
Diego opened a line from downtown San Diego to downtown Tijuana.
Their rider5hip started in the teens, 13,000-14,000, and is now up
to 23,000-24,000 people per day. The run 15 unit headways and that
line in 1988 has an operating ratio (revenue over the operating
''� costS) OF 104%. That was the only transit system he knew of in the
United States where the operating costs of the system were covered
by the farebox. The Twin Cities bus line recovers 36� of its
operating costs out of the farebox. Property owners are paying
property taxes in the range of 2- 2 1/2 miis to make up that
difference. They project the light rail transit will recover 60-
65� of its operating costs.
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Mr. Barna stated despite gas shortages, rideshare programs, the
push to smaller cars, there still seems to be a lot of big
cars/vans on the roads with only one peraon. They are looking at
a whole different class of people. He could see where maybe a
light transit system down University Avenue over to Central and
then circling back around might be worthwhile for Fridley. He did
not see a light rail system gaining that much ridership to downtown
Minneapolis, unless they tear up the roads to get the people off
the roads, and then they might as well put the rails down the old
road systems. .
Mr. Yantos stated the County is not interested in getting all the
people off the roads. The population in Anoka County is growing
19� from the year 1970-2000. The same roads that existed in 1970
will be the same roads in �the year 2000. There is no planned
expansion. Basically, there is not any room unless they start
taking major housing developments out to make room for the new
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roads.
Mr. �olsfeld stated MnDOT's cost estimate to construct/rebuild the
394 to downtown Minneapolis (12 miles of freeway), out to I-694,
is $400 million. This is greatly over budget. Capital costs
estimate for the state one system for 29 miles of liqht rail is
$419 million. In looking at the percentage of people in the Twin
Cities area who are going to use 394 as a percent of all travel,
the light rail will do better at $419 million.
1Kr. Yantos stated the latest predictions on 394 is that it will be
full by the time it opens up.
Mr. Yantos stated they are looking at an overall system that will
try to live with or manage the tremendous impact on their highways,
and they are looking at light rail transit as providing part of
that pressure alleviation.
Mr. Saba stated the only way he could see light rail successful is
a good feeder bus system. Were there any plans to upgrade the
existinc� bus system, or is it going to continue as it is?
Mr. Wolsfeld stated the thought is that MTC will operate the light
� rail transit system after the system is constructed. The thought
then is to take all the buses that have been going north/south in
this route and provide them or► an east/west access.
Mr. Dahlberg asked if that was an integral part of the planning
process at this stage.
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Mr. Wolsfeld stated it is. MTC has not done a specific feeder bus
plan for the northeast corridor. They are waiting for a preferred
alternative to be selected, and they would then take the buses off
Central and University Avenues. It appears, however, they might
not get to a preferred alternative and will continue to look at
Central and University, probably south of I-694.
Ms. Dacy stated she had videotaped the possible light transit route
through Fridley. She stated the tape might help the Planning
Commission in their discussions about the transit philosophy,
commuter versus urban, and look at the route specifics and some of
the station locations. Some stations are proposed to be located
in redevelopment areas.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated he agreed there is a need for both light rail
transit and the bus service. They need to have walk-in access, a
place to park bicycles, park and ride lots, feeder buses, etc.
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SPECIAL PLANNI�a .COMMI3SION MEETINa. FEBRIIARS 1. 1989
Mr. Saba asked about the reliability of light rail transit as far
as time.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated the one great advantaqe of light rail transit
is its extreme reliability. It is in its exclusive right-of-way
so it cannot get caught in traffic congestion.
Mr. Yantos stated the service will be coming at 12-15 minute
intervals, both directions, all day from 6:00 a.m. to 12:00
midnight.
Mr. Saba asked about the timeframe for building the northeast
corridor, and how long it would take to complete the route to
downtown iKinneapolis.
Mr. Yantos stated they could be under construction in 2-� years.
Mr. Wolsfeld stated the major difference between the old trolley
car service and light trail is the trolley was a street car, and
they ran down the middle of the street. It had to stop whenever
there was traffic congestion. Light rail has its own right-of-way
and will not be competing with automobiles. The automobiles cross
the light rail tracks only.
The Commission members viewed the videotape, "Reach of Rail".
Mr. Betzold asked what the Anoka County Regional Railroad Authority
was looking for, if anything, from the Planning Commission, the
City Council, and the other people representing Fridley.
Mr. Yantos stated that at this point in time, the committee members
have been providing the Railroad Authority with guidance on the
general route selection and possible station locations. After the
comprehensive plan is completed the end of February, the next phase
is the preliminary design stage. The County Railroad Authorities
will look at that information and ultimately make the final
decision as to where the system will be built. Then they will get
into the final engineering stage.
Mr. Saba asked how would the light rail transit system be paid for.
Mr. Yantos stated they are looking at a variety of ways.
Obviously� property taxes would be one way, another would be the
State providing a large portion, Federal fundinq, and a variety of
other revenues.
Mr. Dahlberg stated that the present infrastructure of the roadways
in Anoka County potentially could not accommodate expansion just
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� SPECI�L PLANNING COMMI68ION MEETIN�. �EBRIIARY 1, 1989
due to limitation of ri�ht-qf-�ay, required acquisition, etc. If
a two track rail system is instalied, at what level would the two
tracks be at capacity?
Mr. Moore stated it depended on how frequently they want the trains
to run. In theory, they can operate the trains at 3 minute
intervals, so that is 20 trains an hour. If they put 500 people
in three car trains, that is potentially 10,000 people an hour in
one dire�tion. A freeway lane is moving fairly well at 1,200-1,400
people an hour. However, he did not think they could operate at
a 3 minute frequency in the northeast corridor � because there is too
much conflict in getting through the cross streets. A 6-10 minute
frequency 3.s something they could expect on a long term basis, if
they could generate that kind of ridership.
Mr. Yantos stated to give the Commission members a perspective of
the timing, the comprehensive plan will be acted upon by the end
of February. The Railroad Authority will make a decision whether
to go on to the next phase, the preliminary design phasQ. That
wi11 take about 8 months to complete. All the communities impacted
at that time will have interaction all during that 8 months. Then,
the preliminary design plan will come back about 8 months from
March for review and comments by the communities.
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Mr. Robertson stated if it is the Railroad Authority�s decision to
proceed with light rail transit, the concerns the Planning
Commission and Housing & Redevelopment Authority will have are the ��°
station locations and station types and the actual visual treatment
decisions. Who is going to make that decision? How can the
Planning Commission, Housing & Redevelopment Authority, and the
City Council evaluate information and provide recommendations back
to the Railroad Authority?
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Mr. Yantos stated each community has a different structure as to
how they want to have their information flow up and down to the
committees, but they hope that communication will happen. The
Intergovernmental Advisory Committee will be continually active
throughout the entire process. They will be working with John
Flora, Public Works Director, and other Public Works people
continually over the next 8 months.
The Planning Commis�ion reviewed the videotape of the proposed
route through Fridley. The Planning Commission suggested a station
be evaluated at the Lake Pointe site or at 7th Street along the I-
694 crossover.
Further, the Planning Commisson initiated discussion regarding the
number of station locations in the City.
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Mr. Barna suqges�ed three stations along University Avenue to
minimize the impact on city businesses.
Mr. Dahlberg suggested the Planning Commission formalize its
discussion on February 8 since no regular items are scheduled. Mr.
Betzold agreed to conduct a meeting on February-8 at 7:30 p.m.
Mr. Betzold thanked Mr. Yantos, Mr. Wolsfeld, and Mr. Moore for
coming to the Planning Commission meeting. He stated they could
see that the Planning Commission wants to be involved in the
process.
ADJOURNMENT: �
Chairperson Betzold declared the February 1, 1989, special Planning
Commission meeting adjourned at 9:00 p.m.
Respectfully submitted,
Lyn aba
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Recd ding Secretary
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